The now-enacted will of (some of) the people

[blandy]

1 minute ago, chrisp65 said:

My point exactly. I’m not seeing any tory majority?

If that’s MP’s I’m seeing a Labour Government. If that’s AM’s I’m seeing a Labour Senedd. If that’s Councils its an old map because there are no tory councils.

People in parts of Wales voted for what is it, there, 14? Tory MPs to add to the ones that some places in England and Scotland voted for to sit in the UK parliament in the UK elections.

People in Wales voted for Brexit...

Sometimes the influence of voters in one place goes against the interests of wishes of voters in other places. Of course, you could say "well lets split from those over there" and each town or country or area or Principality or part of the UK could be independent. But as we've seen with Brexit, going it alone has considerable drawbacks.

[chrisp65]

‘Sometimes’ doing a lot of heavy lifting there. When did Wales ever vote a tory majority? In fairness so you don’t have to go and look it up, it was once, 173 years ago during the Austro Sardinian War.

Brexit is still too new to know if there have been long term drawbacks. Potentially, there could be a number very big positives in the longer term.

 

 

[Genie]

6 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

Brexit is still too new to know if there have been long term drawbacks. Potentially, there could be a number very big positives in the longer term

[chrisp65]

5 minutes ago, Genie said:

[Genie]

13 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

I’m having that as a downside personally (just be clear, the breakup of the union in general, a united Ireland is probably great for Ireland).

Edited May 9, 2022 by Genie

[Xann]

1 minute ago, Genie said:

I’m having that as a downside personally 

There's always bloody revolution followed by the toppling of the money god

[chrisp65]

5 minutes ago, Genie said:

I’m having that as a downside personally 

As is your right.

I’ve got it down as an unlikely scenario, but an exciting prospect.

 

 

 

[OutByEaster?]

3 hours ago, chrisp65 said:

When did Wales ever vote a tory majority? In fairness so you don’t have to go and look it up, it was once, 173 years ago during the Austro Sardinian War.

Did the Sun print a headline claiming it was Lord John Russell (I looked him up) wot won it?

 

[blandy]

3 hours ago, chrisp65 said:

‘Sometimes’ doing a lot of heavy lifting there. When did Wales ever vote a tory majority?

It's not doing any lifting. Constituencies in Wales voted to have tory MPs to send to Westminster to do tory things to us.

At the micro level I hate the tories, but because other people where I live voted for them, I've got a tory MP. I don't like that. People in other places also voted for the baby eaters to be their MPs, including many in Wales - and they govern the UK as a result and Brexit came about because of Brexit voters in Wales and the North voting for it. I didn't. You didn't. But we got what we got.

I've no problem with anyone in Wales or Scotland wanting independence, for their sakes though my view is it would be bad for not just those people, ultimately, but also for the English (who would have no say in the "divorce") - we'd all be worse off. Same as Brexit.

Democracy is a bit crap, much of the time.

[sidcow]

7 minutes ago, blandy said:

Democracy is a bit crap, much of the time.

[chrisp65]

36 minutes ago, blandy said:

It's not doing any lifting. Constituencies in Wales voted to have tory MPs to send to Westminster to do tory things to us.

 

I've no problem with anyone in Wales or Scotland wanting independence, for their sakes though my view is it would be bad for not just those people, ultimately, but also for the English (who would have no say in the "divorce") - we'd all be worse off. Same as Brexit.

Democracy is a bit crap, much of the time.

25 left MP’s, 13 tory MP’s. If England voted in a similar way, they wouldn’t be doing tory things to us and wouldn’t have since 1859, in fact they wouldn’t have then either, as that one year England didn’t vote tory! You have to go back to the pre Victorian elections to see Wales voting for and getting a tory government. That’s suggesting something a bit more fundamental than just the way democracy pans out sometimes. Sometimes really doesn’t cut it. 

But again, this is the point already made, you say England wouldn’t have a say in the divorce, but they absolutely would. It is only in the gift of the UK PM, his constituency is made up of 10 million across N.I., Wales, and Scotland combined. But also, 56 million in England.

So with the best will in the world, England absolutely has not only a say, but the final say. To the point that they can decide to stay or leave for themselves, unilaterally, but hold a golden veto on the others. That’s actually a lack of democracy being a bit crap.

You’d have to say, Brexit was kind of about being in a club you didn’t want to be in where people in other countries get to dictate what you can and can’t do. So the logical extension of Brexit is to break up the unionists nationalism.

 

[blandy]

25 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

 

So with the best will in the world, England absolutely has not only a say, but the final say. To the point that they can decide to stay or leave for themselves, unilaterally, but hold a golden veto on the others. That’s actually a lack of democracy being a bit crap.

 

This is, to be polite, utter rubbish. The UK government of the day is not “England”. The PM could be and has been in previous times, a Scottish constituency MP, or Welsh. England cannot just decide to Leave the UK. Scotland had a referendum and decided to stay. If things had been different they could have left. The mechanics of it are not as per your post 

I get the desire people have for Independence because they get a Tory Westminster guvmint when “they” voted locally, for more non tories than tories and always have done. No argument there. It’s simplistic, and one dimensional whether SNP or Plaid. For me the solution is more around power being more localised, not just for people who live in Wales, but everywhere. Less power wielded centrally, without breaking up the Union. The nationalist crap is not for me, whether English or Scottish or Welsh. Irish is a different situation as it’s as much around reunification with the other half of an Island as about NI becoming independent.

[chrisp65]

2 minutes ago, blandy said:

This is, to be polite, utter rubbish. The UK government of the day is not “England”. The PM could be and has been in previous times, a Scottish constituency MP, or Welsh. England cannot just decide to Leave the UK. Scotland had a referendum and decided to stay. If things had been different they could have left. The mechanics of it are not as per your post 

I get the desire people have for Independence because they get a Tory Westminster guvmint when “they” voted locally, for more non tories than tories and always have done. No argument there. It’s simplistic, and one dimensional whether SNP or Plaid. For me the solution is more around power being more localised, not just for people who live in Wales, but everywhere. Less power wielded centrally, without breaking up the Union. The nationalist crap is not for me, whether English or Scottish or Welsh. Irish is a different situation as it’s as much around reunification with the other half of an Island as about NI becoming independent.

 

For my benefit and education, pick apart the bit that is utter rubbish.

I’ve said the UK government is 80% England, I’m not sure how that could be disputed? I haven’t mentioned where the PM comes from and I’m not sure how it’s relevant? What legal block is stopping England leaving unilaterally? The Scots referendum was granted to them by Westminster. If they have another, they need it endorsed by Westminster or its just a big opinion poll. 

[desensitized43]

26 minutes ago, blandy said:

This is, to be polite, utter rubbish. The UK government of the day is not “England”. The PM could be and has been in previous times, a Scottish constituency MP, or Welsh. England cannot just decide to Leave the UK. Scotland had a referendum and decided to stay. If things had been different they could have left. The mechanics of it are not as per your post 

I get the desire people have for Independence because they get a Tory Westminster guvmint when “they” voted locally, for more non tories than tories and always have done. No argument there. It’s simplistic, and one dimensional whether SNP or Plaid. For me the solution is more around power being more localised, not just for people who live in Wales, but everywhere. Less power wielded centrally, without breaking up the Union. The nationalist crap is not for me, whether English or Scottish or Welsh. Irish is a different situation as it’s as much around reunification with the other half of an Island as about NI becoming independent.

The solution to that is a reformed second chamber where all 4 nations have equal say - as in the United States (which admittedly might not be a popular example!!) where each state has 2 senators regardless of population and wealth.

In general, we need a proper constitutional convention of all parties and nations because in recent times the government of the day have shown a frightening willingness to tear up the rule book, lie and act like charlatans without conscience when it’s in their own party interest.

[blandy]

17 hours ago, chrisp65 said:

For my benefit and education, pick apart the bit that is utter rubbish.

You’re all over the place. First you keep calling the UK guvmint /parliament “England”.  It isn’t. Parliament, the 2 houses are an amalgam of representatives from not just Wellingborough, but all over.

18 hours ago, chrisp65 said:

It is only in the gift of the UK PM

17 hours ago, chrisp65 said:

I haven’t mentioned where the PM comes from and I’m not sure how it’s relevant?

So, in the gift of the UK pm. Someone who could be, I dunno, Gordon Brown - MP for Dunfermline in Scotland. The English bastard stopping the Sots and Welsh from being independent! Or Lloyd-George of Dyffor in Wales…

18 hours ago, chrisp65 said:

England absolutely has not only a say, but the final say.

England does not have its own parliament (unlike Wales and Scotland). There is no "England" parliament to have a say, final or otherwise - whatever the UK parliament decides is not “England” deciding, it’s the UK deciding. The MPs from English constituencies do not all hold the same views on Wales or Scotland, they are not voting to prevent Wales leaving, they are not cohering to act as “England” and stymie the will of the Welsh people. The MPs from Welsh constituencies, elected by Welsh voters -see how they gamely battle the English enemy to get freedom for Wales? What’s that? They don’t want independence and nor do the Welsh people? Oh…but I thought it was England thwarting Wales.

The SNP are smart. They complain of “Westminster” doing or not doing x,y, or z. They know that complaining about “England” is not only inaccurate, but also divisive, counterproductive and frankly a bit xenophobic.

Now, because I don’t want to fall out, I’ll stop and offer you a dog.

 

[sidcow]

Do we need a State of The Union thread so I can get back to enjoying reading about Brexit xxxxwittery on here? 

Edited May 10, 2022 by sidcow

[Lichfield Dean]

Liz Truss is talking about scrapping the NI protocol and allowing free movement of goods from/to GB.

But how can that work? Surely that would result in an immediate hard border with the. South of Ireland? And instigate some kind of trade war with the EU?

This sounds exactly like the sort of thing we really need right now in this economic climate

Edit: feels like we are forever going round in endless circles on this particular unsolvable aspect of Brexit

Edited May 10, 2022 by Lichfield Dean

[ml1dch]

32 minutes ago, Lichfield Dean said:

Surely that would result in an immediate hard border with the. South of Ireland?

What, Cork, Waterford - that sort of area?

[Lichfield Dean]

19 minutes ago, ml1dch said:

What, Cork, Waterford - that sort of area?

Yes, just the very southern most bit

[Genie]

Quote

COUNTRYFILE viewers have launched a scathing attack on the BBC after the broadcaster aired a segment on Brexit. 

During the episode, a section on Brexitand vets soon had fans of the series all riled up.

The segment explored how a shortage of new vets has had an impact on farms and the countryside, caused by Brexit.

Due to the contents of the segment, dozens of viewers took to Twitter to air their thoughts.

Alongside an array of angry faced emojis, one person penned: "The BBC are gaslighting us again. Countryfile is always trying to ram nonsense down people's throats."

Echoing their comments, someone else said: "BBC just said the B word. Absolutely sick of it."

Ah, “the B word” which must never be mentioned again. How dare they ram reality down peoples throats?

Link (warning its The Sun).