The Chairman Mao resembling, Monarchy hating, threat to Britain, Labour Party thread

[meregreen]

As long as first past the post is in situ, the Tories will be hard to shift. The political right has but one conduit for people of that persuasion, and they’re it. It’s why they shit themselves over UKIP and ultimately sacrificed this countries future on the altar of Brexit . The Left is fragmented, the Labour Party Lib Dem’s Scottish Nationalists, Plaid and Greens, are all to varying degrees of the left politically. With the advent of a more multi party choice, ultimately PR will have to be embraced. When, I don’t know. The Labour Party is, I believe more sympathetic to the idea now than ever before. They will have, to I think, be the driving force for it. Expect rabid opposition to it from the Tories. It will though, in my opinion, eventually happen. Nothing in Politics is forever.

[Seat68]

2 minutes ago, dAVe80 said:

I stopped contributing to this thread, cus it winds me up, and I could see me biting. For what it's worth, in my opinion Corbyn is a fine and principled man, treated appallingly bad by sections of his own party, and the media. I still maintain that if the PLP didn't stab him in the back, Labour could have won a general election under his leadership. That's not to say he was perfect, and not to say he wasn't flawed (in the same way every human being is). 

As for his cult following, I think that the fact so many of them voted for Starmer illustrates a lot of people who backed him, probably didn't understand his politics. I was never a member of Momentum, but work with many who were, and made a lot of good new comrades, some of who have become personal friends. For people to paint them all as stupid or dangerous is frankly laughable. 

It's never been just about Corbyn, and I don't believe in Corbynism. For me it was about Socialism, and a chance for the poor and working class of the UK to benefit from Socialism, after 10 years of austerity and Tory rule. If that makes me a deluded, raving lefty, then I'll wear that badge with pride. 

I'm staying in the party, because I believe the Labour Party and the Trade Union movement are the best vehicle to help my class. 

I always took your contributions as being fairly balanced and to use a True Blood expression you were never glamoured by personality. 

[blandy]

14 minutes ago, snowychap said:

Now, it may be your long held opinion that it was never going to happen, &c. but you have categorised the perfectly reasonable point of view held by anyone (absolutely anyone - whether 'cultist' or not as per your subsequent definition) that it was possible for Jeremy Corbyn to have become PM as 'the wildest imaginings of [the] angry tramps'.

In a subsequent post, you went on to clarify what you meant by cultists and you differentiated them from others who may have shared similar policy objectives without returning to the above, i.e. the initial point which was your contention that only in one particular place was there ever the slightest chance for Corbyn to have become PM and that was the 'wildest imaginings' of angry tramps.

Mark me down as an angry tramp, in that case, along with HV, pretty much every serious political commentator I've read, many politicans and political activists from parties other than Labour and many, many more

Not subsequent, previous. I defined (or tried to) the cultists and Tramps, BEFORE I then explicitly excluded the likes of who you perceive me to be having a go at.

A question, to move this on, sort of. Did you think Corbyn was ever going to be elected as PM Darren? I'd be interested to find out who thought he genuinely would or might be, as opposed to those who hoped he might be.

[snowychap]

1 hour ago, blandy said:

Did you think Corbyn was ever going to be elected as PM Darren?

Did I think the Labour party were going to win a General Election under Corbyn? No.

Does that mean that I therefore thought there wasn't even the slightest chance that the Labour party under Corbyn could win a General Election? Of course not.

There were also other ways in which there was the possibility of Corbyn becoming PM last year during the Parliamentary impasse over the various options about the Withdrawal Agreement. Again, this possibility may have been small and largely ruled out by some of the people and parties involved but the possibility was very much something being discussed at the time.

It was not merely something in the wildest imagination of angry tramps.

1 hour ago, blandy said:

2 hours ago, snowychap said:

In a subsequent post, you went on to clarify what you meant by cultists and you differentiated them from others who may have shared similar policy objectives

Not subsequent, previous. I defined (or tried to) the cultists and Tramps, BEFORE I then explicitly excluded the likes of who you perceive me to be having a go at.

Really?

Post 1:

7 hours ago, blandy said:

It’s dumb as ****. Cultist idiocy and self pity. Because only in the wildest imaginings of the angry tramps was there ever the slightest chance of Corbyn being PM. In the actual real world it was never, ever, going to happen. It’s just a stupid way to make a “look at me“ point, “it’s so sad that saint Jeremy isn’t pm, I’m nice and the world is cruel”.

Post 2:

6 hours ago, blandy said:

It’s your call to say that. But I should explain that your definition and mine seem to differ. For me the cultists are those who held up Corbyn (the person) as some kind of glorious, competent, visionary, enlightened, superior alternative that the world had been crying out for. Those who turned a blind eye to his many serious flaws and errors, who excused and denied grievous failings of judgement, who overlooked the duplicity and double standards. They’re the cultists.

That’s completely different from wanting fairer taxation, or public ownership of rail, or a properly funded NHS or social services or an end to the bedroom tax or...

It’s true that a great many people hoped or believed that through Corbyn they could get the list of things...but they’re not cultists either. The cultists were the manipulators, the nest featherers, the virtue signallers, the “**** off and join the tories” lot. The hostile, angry bunch demanding kinder politics, the seething bell ends.

Edit:

Your first post is where you talk about angry tramps' imagination being the only place where there was ever the slightest chance of Corbyn being PM.

Your second post was where you try to clarify what you meant by cultists.

You do not, as far as I can see, ever row back on the first claim (and the 'in the real world' rubbish).

 

Edited April 12, 2020 by snowychap

[blandy]

46 minutes ago, snowychap said:

Did I think the Labour party were going to win a General Election under Corbyn? No.

There were also other ways in which there was the possibility of Corbyn becoming PM last year during the Parliamentary impasse over the various options about the Withdrawal Agreement. Again, this possibility may have been small and largely ruled out ..

It was not merely something in the wildest imagination of angry tramps.

Your first post is where you talk about angry tramps' imagination being the only place where there was ever the slightest chance of Corbyn being PM.

Your second post was where you try to clarify what you meant by cultists.

You do not, as far as I can see, ever row back on the first claim (and the 'in the real world' rubbish).

I don't row back on it. It's my view and experience. I know many nice people hoped he'd win, I don't know of anyone like that who thought he would and don't recall anyone on here saying he would or that it was remotely likely.

As for the prior definition/naming of the "tramps", I've been doing it repeatedly for well over a year (and I stole it off a comedian as I said at the first time I did it).

On 30/08/2018 at 16:56, blandy said:

...His people, his "band of furious tramps*" do that [chant insults at others to bully them as peter ms posted] for him, whether online or in person.

*(c) stewart lee

Anyway, Him and his numpty accolytes are hopefully out of the picture now, and we just might get a competent and revitalised Labur party. I hope so.

[snowychap]

 

1 hour ago, blandy said:

As for the prior definition/naming of the "tramps", I've been doing it repeatedly for well over a year (and I stole it off a comedian as I said at the first time I did it).

Well, quite understandably, I was looking at it in the context of this particular conversation not whether you actually once used the phrase in the dim and distant past (or repeatedly elsewhere).

Also understandably and unsurprisingly, I don't have an encyclopaedic knowledge of your posting history.

1 hour ago, blandy said:

I don't row back on it. It's my view and experience.

Thanks for confirming that you have, not just crassly and clumsily but intentionally, categorised a huge swathe of people, including me, as 'angry tramps'.

Edited April 12, 2020 by snowychap

[blandy]

 

[snowychap]

Yes, perfectly aware of Stewart Lee and that particular stand-up show of his. I saw him perform it at De Monfort Hall, Leicester in 2017.

You aren't Stewart Lee and you're not performing stand up.

[chrisp65]

Not like lefties to argue amongst themselves whilst the tories shag the country.

Corbyn was never going to win, the fact that even the dried husk of May couldn’t **** it up enough for him to get in by default simply lead some in to a false sense of ‘winning’ just conspired to actually make it worse.

Corbyn couldn’t even beat May and Johnson. I’m just **** grateful the tories didn’t have a competent candidate to win a few dozen more seats and make the SNP the official opposition.

[Brumstopdogs]

[chrisp65]

Gif pretty much sums up the greedy me me me scumbag culture.

 

[meregreen]

It could be argued the fact the Tories are still in power after all the callousness they have shown, says more about the sad state of the electorate in this country , than it does about the Labour Party. Thatcher did more harm to this countries values than many of us realised.

[HanoiVillan]

The report @Jareth was talking about the other day has been leaked, and is fairly explosive:

These are from WhatsApp conversations amongst people in Labour HQ. For context, Emilie Oldknow is Shadow Health Secretary Jon Ashworth's wife, and Starmer's team have reportedly been pushing behind the scenes for her to be the next General Secretary. That may be, uh, harder now. Here she is again, amongst others, participating in a conversation in which they imagine someone with mental health issues being set on fire:

This section, in reaction to the 2017 election, is also pretty remarkable:

Note that doing better than expected was 'opposite to what I had been working towards for the last couple of years!!' for Tracey Allen.

The document alleges - and frankly presents pretty persuasive evidence - that anti-semitism allegations were not dealth with at all by the relevant department during Corbyn opponent Iain McNicol's time in charge, and neither were any other allegations of misconduct by Labour members or representatives. There is some suggestion that the department may not have been moving on doing this work because they found it useful to embarrass Corbyn:

In case anyone is wondering if these are real, none of the people named in these WhatsApp chats have denied their involvement, and several have locked their social media profiles. Andy Burnham - in full propping-up-the-end-of-the-bar mode - has been waxing philosophical about claims in the document that Labour central office wanted him to lose in 2015 as well, because they also regarded him as too left wing:

The document, which is a pretty depressing 850 pages or so, can be found here: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/254736468835041280/698946398799790151/200329-Labour-Report-Final.pdf.pdf

[dAVe80]

I spent most of last night on twitter, following this, and talking to comrades from the left of my local party. This is nothing a lot of us haven't been saying for a while. However non of us feel vindicated, just sick to the stomach to be proved right. The nihilist in me wants to burn the party to the ground. No interest in politics, just a want to play Game of Thrones.

Worst thing is, there were genuine cases of AS that would have gone unsorted because of this. Plus there's blatant racism towards black MPs, from those taking the moral high ground. 

Well Sir Keir, sort this mess out now. Be quick and decisive. 

[Awol]

20 hours ago, Seat68 said:

Jesus please not another thread title change. Its a joke. 

Now I understand what happened to the “absolutely nothing to do with China, virus” thread. 

[Jareth]

2 hours ago, dAVe80 said:

Worst thing is, there were genuine cases of AS that would have gone unsorted because of this. Plus there's blatant racism towards black MPs, from those taking the moral high ground. 

Well Sir Keir, sort this mess out now. Be quick and decisive. 

I appreciate there is a pandemic on, so this must wait, but when there is time certainly Starmer should ensure that this matter is dealt with. There are a lot of good MPs who I respect from the last few years, and it's pleasing to see them in the shadow cabinet, even if that cabinet must include the likes of Wes Streeting. John Ashworth though, what a snake - makes me think that accidental phone call slating Labours chances the night before the election - was another trick. Anyway - until this is sorted out, Labour cannot move forwards - if these sorts of people are allowed positions of power, then this can all happen again and Labour cannot win unless it is united.

[Awol]

Apparently many of the links to this are disappearing, so grab it while you can - if 850 pages of Labour Talk are your thing. 

Supposedly pretty grim reading, with a GDPR bonfire thrown in. 

Edited April 13, 2020 by Awol
Hadn’t seen Hanoi’s link above...

[Jareth]

 

[HanoiVillan]

4 hours ago, dAVe80 said:

I spent most of last night on twitter, following this, and talking to comrades from the left of my local party. This is nothing a lot of us haven't been saying for a while. However non of us feel vindicated, just sick to the stomach to be proved right. The nihilist in me wants to burn the party to the ground. No interest in politics, just a want to play Game of Thrones.

Worst thing is, there were genuine cases of AS that would have gone unsorted because of this. Plus there's blatant racism towards black MPs, from those taking the moral high ground. 

Well Sir Keir, sort this mess out now. Be quick and decisive. 

If you read the report, you will see that your worst fears are confirmed mate. Lots of examples of genuine antisemitism just sat on for months and months at a time. those doing so appear to have been ignoring them both because they were enjoying how politically embarrassing it was, and because they were too busy running parallel governance structures and bitching on WhatsApp. It's an abysmal state of affairs, and as you say, Starmer will need to be quick and decisive in his handling of this.

[dAVe80]

27 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said:

If you read the report, you will see that your worst fears are confirmed mate. Lots of examples of genuine antisemitism just sat on for months and months at a time. those doing so appear to have been ignoring them both because they were enjoying how politically embarrassing it was, and because they were too busy running parallel governance structures and bitching on WhatsApp. It's an abysmal state of affairs, and as you say, Starmer will need to be quick and decisive in his handling of this.

Yeah, it certainly seems the case. I think any decent member of the party conceded that there were/are issues with AS in the party, as would be the case with any group of half a million plus people. I think the issue biggest issue I have with this whole thing is that this faction weponised it, in an attempt to push their agenda, and undermine the direction the party wanted to go in. That's pretty much as low as it gets in my book. 

Edited April 13, 2020 by dAVe80