Jareth Posted April 19, 2020 Share Posted April 19, 2020 4 minutes ago, blandy said: Starmer - people making efforts to "sabotage him" would be daft, but I'm sure a few will try. The angry tramps won't vanish from Labour of their own free will [and no, I don't include any VT'ers in that group, for clarity - I mean the numpties on twitter, and the acolytes like McLuskey, Milne, Formby, Murphy etc.]. Again, with respect, I think this is a misunderstanding - the left will back him, they have backed him - the loud angry tramps are mostly disowned and not championed - they are fading because they are so wrong. So we have to draw a line, there is no time for reprisals, but we cannot have those that have indulged in reprisals as a part of the future - Labour can be united, but we cannot go forwards with these people in positions of power. It just does not matter what I think or anyone thinks of the past, it is what it is, but if we truly want a future, they must be discarded, and by that I mean the people who sabotaged 2017 must be discarded. These people are not going to win us power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted April 19, 2020 Moderator Share Posted April 19, 2020 11 minutes ago, Jareth said: 100% agree. Members voted Starmer by a majority - the same people who voted Corbyn - Labour does not have a future if it denies what happened. This has to be done quickly if we want a chance at the next election. Yes, they can't deny what happened, they need to understand what happened and why. McNicholl comes out badly - He is said by Formby who wrote the report to have misled the leadership about anti-semitism complaints. Doing things like saying cases had been investigated when they hadn't. But also allegedly telling the leader that most of the complaints weren't about Labour members, when they actually were - i.e. the problem was downplayed when it was more rife than he said - that's inexcusable. There was a bigger AS problem than allegedly realised by the leadership, in part perhaps because McNicholl played it down to him. We have to remember that the report was written by a Corbyn key ally, that we can't know what was not included, things can be cherry picked so they look even worse than they are, for example. The report was also written in 2020 and was as much about the last few years as the 2017 election wasn't it? Whatever, it's clear the two factions have been fighting like rats in a sack for control, influence and ambition and so on. Shambles of a party for the past 5 years. I hope that stops. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jareth Posted April 19, 2020 Share Posted April 19, 2020 1 minute ago, blandy said: Yes, they can't deny what happened, they need to understand what happened and why. McNicholl comes out badly - He is said by Formby who wrote the report She didn't, she did not write the report. It wasn't submitted to the EHRC, because it was inconvenient. They invented nothing, it was entirely based on internal emails - someone downloaded their Whatsapp history to the server. These are staggering fact based arguments - there is no spin. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dAVe80 Posted April 19, 2020 Share Posted April 19, 2020 (edited) Unless you sat through CLP meetings etc, and where involved in activities during the past 3 or 4 years, and had to deal with the right of the party continuing to undermine the leader, and the left, then you won't understand why turning a blind eye, and not taking any action on last weeks leaked report is just not an option. We have at least 4 to 5 years till another general election, let us sort this now, and once resolved, we can move on. As Jareth said, if you don't like it, look away for a while. Edited April 19, 2020 by dAVe80 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted April 19, 2020 Moderator Share Posted April 19, 2020 4 minutes ago, Jareth said: we have to draw a line, there is no time for reprisals, but we cannot have those that have indulged in reprisals as a part of the future That's inconsistent in itself and also with this 57 minutes ago, Jareth said: Any MP or supporter who does not condemn those who thwarted a Labour government in 2017 - or even stay silent on the subject - do not understand how important this is. Yes it is indulgent party politics right now, so I advise anyone who can't care less to look away, but this is absolutely crucial if Labour want a future We can't have reprisals, but there have to be reprisals [no part of the future - throw them out??] and condemnation? What am I missing here? FWIW, the report is being leapt all over by Labour lawyers and the leak is being investigated - i.e .it appears like the leak and maybe the whole report is motivated by further infighting made to look Jeremy look like (more of) a victim than he was. What are the manouevrings of his aides and accolytes, where are they covered? I'm not really interested, as Bicks said a bit back. I'm not a member and only care in as much as Corbyn's gone finally, and they need to get their act together. Who'd a thunk that Corbyn as leader would be divisive and disastrous, eh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted April 19, 2020 Moderator Share Posted April 19, 2020 5 minutes ago, Jareth said: She didn't, she did not write the report. I read she commissioned it, worked on it, and that a handful of other Corbyn close, er, "aides" also contributed. But if that's wrong, then who did write it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jareth Posted April 19, 2020 Share Posted April 19, 2020 2 minutes ago, blandy said: I read she commissioned it, worked on it, and that a handful of other Corbyn close, er, "aides" also contributed. But if that's wrong, then who did write it? Please point me to any invention Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jareth Posted April 19, 2020 Share Posted April 19, 2020 6 minutes ago, blandy said: That's inconsistent in itself and also with this We can't have reprisals, but there have to be reprisals [no part of the future - throw them out??] and condemnation? What am I missing here? FWIW, the report is being leapt all over by Labour lawyers and the leak is being investigated - i.e .it appears like the leak and maybe the whole report is motivated by further infighting made to look Jeremy look like (more of) a victim than he was. What are the manouevrings of his aides and accolytes, where are they covered? I'm not really interested, as Bicks said a bit back. I'm not a member and only care in as much as Corbyn's gone finally, and they need to get their act together. Who'd a thunk that Corbyn as leader would be divisive and disastrous, eh? Well this is a real paradox. The same people (i.e. me) want Starmer to succeed, also want the report to be answered. They cannot get their act together if staff members undermine the future - there has to be trust, and unity. Labour has changed, in a fundamental way, it is hugely democratic now, it cannot go back to the 1990s, and god willing there will be an answer to what happened in 2017. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted April 19, 2020 Moderator Share Posted April 19, 2020 2 minutes ago, Jareth said: Well this is a real paradox. The same people (i.e. me) want Starmer to succeed, also want the report to be answered. They cannot get their act together if staff members undermine the future - there has to be trust, and unity. Labour has changed, in a fundamental way, it is hugely democratic now, it cannot go back to the 1990s, and god willing there will be an answer to what happened in 2017. I agree with that. People who dun wrong need to go. Not for "undermining" or "fighting" or their "views" but for instances of negligence, failure to do their jobs properly and so on. If it was X's job to pass on. complaints and they held them back, it doesn't matter their motive, they failed to do their job. OUT. I have immense sympathy with the ones who felt Corbyn to be a disaster, hugely unsuitable as a person to be PM and so an electoral liability - they're my thought exactly - and equally there are those who felt the Blairites were evil traitors and so on (the flip side view) - but that's no reason, in either case, not to do your job properly. Unpaid volunteers, well they can just walk away, but paid staff have to perform their jobs professionally. If they don't, get them out and move on. Manipulating to get rid of this MP or that leader or that official because they're not in your clique or religion or whatever is poison. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jareth Posted April 19, 2020 Share Posted April 19, 2020 1 minute ago, blandy said: I agree with that. People who dun wrong need to go. Not for "undermining" or "fighting" or their "views" but for instances of negligence, failure to do their jobs properly and so on. If it was X's job to pass on. complaints and they held them back, it doesn't matter their motive, they failed to do their job. OUT. I have immense sympathy with the ones who felt Corbyn to be a disaster, hugely unsuitable as a person to be PM and so an electoral liability - they're my thought exactly - and equally there are those who felt the Blairites were evil traitors and so on (the flip side view) - but that's no reason, in either case, not to do your job properly. Unpaid volunteers, well they can just walk away, but paid staff have to perform their jobs professionally. If they don't, get them out and move on. Manipulating to get rid of this MP or that leader or that official because they're not in your clique or religion or whatever is poison. I so agree with that. I supported Corbyn, but have grown up, I realise now that the messenger is as important as the message - Labour did not win because it was not united and it does not matter who or what - but unity is the key to winning - it's why I back Starmer. I was depressed the other day about centrism, because it feels out of step with events - but after today's Times article on Boris, well it feels like sentiment has shifted. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam-AVFC Posted April 19, 2020 Share Posted April 19, 2020 I struggle to take some of you seriously. Corbyn was dreadful during the election because... "he was unclear on Brexit" "he didn't deal with anti-semitism" "he can't unify the party" "he alienates the working class" *find out numerous investigations may have been botched on purpose to undermine leadership* "Lul only the tramps care" "it's important to understand WHY they botched the investigation process" "investigating wrongdoing just splits the party yada yada" "why couldn't Corbyn speak to more racist journalists" Whether or not this is appropriate to investigate is completely irrelevant to what you think of Starmer, Tony **** Blair or even 'Catweazle' and if it's an investigation carried out while coronavirus is ongoing I really struggle to see how the potential of 2/3 people getting expelled for doing their jobs badly will cause such a huge rift in the public eye. Like has been said, no one really cares apart from the type of people who talk politics on an online forum. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted April 19, 2020 Moderator Share Posted April 19, 2020 1 hour ago, Jareth said: With respect, what happened was utterly outrageous. I'm all for unity, but the people who made the decisions that they made, cannot be a part of the future. It needs to be levelled. Is it more outrageous than the deaths this government is causing? Have some perspective. If you want to stop these arseholes being in charge of the country giving a **** about such internal trivialities is a mind numbingly retarded thing to care about Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jareth Posted April 19, 2020 Share Posted April 19, 2020 2 minutes ago, bickster said: Is it more outrageous than the deaths this government is causing? Have some perspective. If you want to stop these arseholes being in charge of the country giving a **** about such internal trivialities is a mind numbingly retarded thing to care about I already, and often have said now is not the time for public discourse on the subject - so please understand it is not in my mind more important than the current crisis. But is must take its course eventually, there is an 'after', and this should be on the agenda. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam-AVFC Posted April 19, 2020 Share Posted April 19, 2020 3 minutes ago, bickster said: Is it more outrageous than the deaths this government is causing? Have some perspective. If you want to stop these arseholes being in charge of the country giving a **** about such internal trivialities is a mind numbingly retarded thing to care about Allegedly botching an investigation into anti-semitism to purposefully create bad optics isn’t trivial to me. Of course it’s not top priority and shouldn’t be pushed in the media but by ignoring it you risk creating a group like the Sanders supporters in America who will vote Trump out of spite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted April 19, 2020 Moderator Share Posted April 19, 2020 1 hour ago, Sam-AVFC said: Allegedly botching an investigation into anti-semitism to purposefully create bad optics isn’t trivial to me. Of course it’s not top priority and shouldn’t be pushed in the media but by ignoring it you risk creating a group like the Sanders supporters in America who will vote Trump out of spite. Lets assume the allegation is true (Even that is a big IF) I think that is so far detached from reality Someone (who is no longer in the position he was in) supposedly botched an enquiry into anti-semitism in the Labour Party (Yes the issue needs addressing, the AS issue not the botching)... Because of that I'm voting for a Tory Party that needlessly allowed thosands of people to die including the very old and the vulnerable UK voters don't quite have that level of american stupid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted April 19, 2020 Moderator Share Posted April 19, 2020 Iain McNicol - allegedly sat on loads of AS complaints - uproar Jennie Formby - also allegedly sat on loads of AS complaints - stop bullying her she has cancer Compare and contrast You'll be beating yourselves up for something the general voting public gives not two shits about Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted April 19, 2020 Moderator Share Posted April 19, 2020 1 hour ago, Sam-AVFC said: Allegedly botching an investigation into anti-semitism to purposefully create bad optics isn’t trivial to me. No it's not. And that the report shows it to have been a much bigger problem than Labour said is another worry for them. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jareth Posted April 19, 2020 Share Posted April 19, 2020 (edited) 17 minutes ago, bickster said: Iain McNicol - allegedly sat on loads of AS complaints - uproar Jennie Formby - also allegedly sat on loads of AS complaints - stop bullying her she has cancer She didn't sit on any complaints - she improved the process from what it was. She also had cancer. And there's no alledgedly about McNicholl, he did what he did. It just does not matter any more, Corbyn was taken down, effectively, but the least the folks who did it can now do is to admit they did it. They took one for the team, they have to take their medicine. Edited April 19, 2020 by Jareth 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted April 19, 2020 Moderator Share Posted April 19, 2020 1 minute ago, Jareth said: She didn't sit on any complaints - she improved the process from what it was. She also had cancer. How do you know? They are both just allegations both are allegations that are actually unproven but both were made. The respose to those allegations is entirely different and seems to divide down exactly the same lines but with different answers on both sides in each instance But on the point about Formbie and Cancer, it was used as the excuse in her case by her defenders on many occasions. It's relevant in that it was the Momentum stock answer in reply to the allegation about her. It's not a separate thing as you make out, it is entirely connected to my point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jareth Posted April 19, 2020 Share Posted April 19, 2020 Just now, bickster said: How do you know? They are both just allegations both are allegations that are actually unproven but both were made. The respose to those allegations is entirely different and seems to divide down exactly the same lines but with different answers on both sides in each instance But on the point about Formbie and Cancer, it was used as the excuse in her case by her defenders on many occasions. It's relevant in that it was the Momentum stock answer in reply to the allegation about her. It's not a separate thing as you make out, it is entirely connected to my point. Ok, it's a cynical argument - I'll steer away from it. It is documented that the process was improved, if needs be I'll go find a link, I accept that the last lot were the wrong lot, they did not unify the party - so we have to move on, but if you sabotage the leadership and your actions mean that a mass membership who put money and time into a Labour win, find out that their effort was pointless, there must be a reckoning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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