The Chairman Mao resembling, Monarchy hating, threat to Britain, Labour Party thread

[Chindie]

Tom Watson meddling with a disciplinary process to cause as much embarrassment as possible is just... Ugh.

The whole thing is **** grim. There's more than a few people that should be having careers ended.

They won't be though. The enquiry seems like it's already turning towards finding the leaker than doing anything about the infection within the party. And the media voices that were clapping on the sidelines every fall for the party in the last few years have quickly taken up the line that it was just the fault of the one regime anyway and hey look over there.

[bickster]

On the leaked report, can I just say to all you Labour Party members and supporters... you're falling for the age old problem of caring too much about it.

Ignore it and it will go away

Outside the party and the politico's (and the media to a degree), no one gives a toss

This stuff doesn't win or lose elections, the in-fighting does though

The Tories are literally laughing at you for caring, take a leaf out of their book, ignore it

But I'm 100% convinced you won't, you'll carry on with the Spanish Inquisition which will only succeed in making you look worse and worse, no matter what is decided, which people are sacrificed, what new rules are made etc

We all know the Tory Party is full of islamaphobes (and Anti-semites for that matter), they would have had an investigation years ago if they were Labour... they didn't.

Cue posts about: Media blah Cripple us Blah... as I keep saying, the media are against Labour regardless, this just gives them more and more ammo. Labour need to learn to go around the media and use the media to their own ends not hand them stories like this on a silver platter

Look at the posts here today and yesterday it's absolutely about us and them, this side and that side. That lot aren't socialists... That is all people will remember. Split Labour and you'll carry on loading the machine guns right up to the next election. It's the inevitable life-cycle of the left and particularly the left in Britain

 

[Seat68]

12 minutes ago, bickster said:

On the leaked report, can I just say to all you Labour Party members and supporters... you're falling for the age old problem of caring too much about it.

Ignore it and it will go away

Outside the party and the politico's (and the media to a degree), no one gives a toss

This stuff doesn't win or lose elections, the in-fighting does though

The Tories are literally laughing at you for caring, take a leaf out of their book, ignore it

But I'm 100% convinced you won't, you'll carry on with the Spanish Inquisition which will only succeed in making you look worse and worse, no matter what is decided, which people are sacrificed, what new rules are made etc

We all know the Tory Party is full of islamaphobes (and Anti-semites for that matter), they would have had an investigation years ago if they were Labour... they didn't.

Cue posts about: Media blah Cripple us Blah... as I keep saying, the media are against Labour regardless, this just gives them more and more ammo. Labour need to learn to go around the media and use the media to their own ends not hand them stories like this on a silver platter

Look at the posts here today and yesterday it's absolutely about us and them, this side and that side. That lot aren't socialists... That is all people will remember. Split Labour and you'll carry on loading the machine guns right up to the next election. It's the inevitable life-cycle of the left and particularly the left in Britain

 

My tory mate messaged me today for a reaction and didnt have one. It means nothing to me. I think outside of the people with skin in the game. No one cares. 

[markavfc40]

I know they have had to walk a fine line between constructive questioning and not wanting to politicise the coronavirus crisis but with the Sunday Times article and a number of other right wing rags now shining the spotlight on Johnsons/the Tories catastrophic failings surely it is time for Labour to really go after the Tories now and call them out on those failings.

[blandy]

20 minutes ago, markavfc40 said:

I know they have had to walk a fine line between constructive questioning and not wanting to politicise the coronavirus crisis but with the Sunday Times article and a number of other right wing rags now shining the spotlight on Johnsons/the Tories catastrophic failings surely it is time for Labour to really go after the Tories now and call them out on those failings.

Apparently Starmer is in the Mail on Sunday (let that sink in, Catweazle) telling all those Tory readers about the failings of the Government in dealing with this and what they need to do next.

The papers know that the government is blunderingly incompetent and has royally screwed up significant aspects of the response.  So while they remain partisan, most will also be looking at Starmer now, wanting to see what he’s made of. He gets a chance being both “new” as leader and in the light of the clear failings of the tories. He needs to grab it. It won’t be around all that long.

[markavfc40]

11 minutes ago, blandy said:

Apparently Starmer is in the Mail on Sunday (let that sink in, Catweazle) telling all those Tory readers about the failings of the Government in dealing with this and what they need to do next.

The papers know that the government is blunderingly incompetent and has royally screwed up significant aspects of the response.  So while they remain partisan, most will also be looking at Starmer now, wanting to see what he’s made of. He gets a chance being both “new” as leader and in the light of the clear failings of the tories. He needs to grab it. It won’t be around all that long.

I have seen Starmer getting some criticism for doing a piece in the DM but I guess if you need to get some of those readers to vote for you then you have to go and speak to them.

Like you say Starmer has got to step up to the plate now. Parliament is sitting again from Tuesday and it is time to call the government out on their failings. They have been getting away with murder with the lack of scrutiny.

 

 

[blandy]

22 minutes ago, markavfc40 said:

I have seen Starmer getting some criticism for doing a piece in the DM ....

I can guess who from. Will they ever learn?

[bickster]

Widening the appeal of Labour should always be the goal. Corbyn was content to preach to the converted.

Even if it is the Daily Heil

As for the angry tramps criticising Starmer for doing a piece in the Heil, they'll never learn and its the reason that they were always doomed to failure

[Jareth]

I'm a drama queen, I've reversed my direct debit, I'm staying in the party. What happened to Corbyn was the Red Wedding, treacherous stuff, it must have an answer. James Mills posted a great article the other day,  understated, but the NEC elections are coming up and there has never been a more motivated membership. Any MP or supporter who does not condemn those who thwarted a Labour government in 2017 - or even stay silent on the subject - do not understand how important this is. Yes it is indulgent party politics right now, so I advise anyone who can't care less to look away, but this is absolutely crucial if Labour want a future. 

[bickster]

18 minutes ago, Jareth said:

I'm a drama queen, I've reversed my direct debit, I'm staying in the party. What happened to Corbyn was the Red Wedding, treacherous stuff, it must have an answer. James Mills posted a great article the other day,  understated, but the NEC elections are coming up and there has never been a more motivated membership. Any MP or supporter who does not condemn those who thwarted a Labour government in 2017 - or even stay silent on the subject - do not understand how important this is. Yes it is indulgent party politics right now, so I advise anyone who can't care less to look away, but this is absolutely crucial if Labour want a future. 

Its absolutely crucial members ignore such side shows if they want to actually get power and change lives. it's the age old self flagelation of the Left that is so damaging. Stop giving a f*** about shit like this, it harms the party more than it does it good.

Outside of the party and the media that latch onto silly internal bunfights like this no one cares. All that happens is people think the party is in disarray and they don't get voted for.

giving a f*** about such trivialities is what kills the left every time

[Jareth]

2 minutes ago, bickster said:

Its absolutely crucial members ignore such side shows if they want to actually get power and change lives. it's the age old self flagelation of the Left that is so damaging. Stop giving a f*** about shit like this, it harms the party more than it does it good.

Outside of the party and the media that latch onto silly internal bunfights like this no one cares. All that happens is people think the party is in disarray and they don't get voted for.

giving a f*** about such trivialities is what kills the left every time

With respect, what happened was utterly outrageous. I'm all for unity, but the people who made the decisions that they made, cannot be a part of the future. It needs to be levelled. 

[blandy]

20 minutes ago, Jareth said:

Any MP or supporter who does not condemn those who thwarted a Labour government in 2017 - or even stay silent on the subject - do not understand how important this is

This is so wrong. For 2 reasons, firstly it's horribly divisive and prolongs the infighting and secondly because it seeks to learn absolutely nothing. There is a need to understand WHY these thwarters behaved as they did. If it was because they feared that (say) the leader was unfit to be PM, if it was because they were entirely motivated by self ambition and are bad eggs, if it was because...

Only when you understand why something happened, can you stop it happening again and move on. But just condemning people for having different views is not the way to go.

[blandy]

5 minutes ago, Jareth said:

what happened was utterly outrageous.

What did happen? Seriously. in 2017 what did [and who did  it] they do that stopped Labour winning?

Because I'm pretty sure I could point to all sorts of stuff from all parts of the Labour party that contributed. Not just those you have said " those who thwarted a Labour government in 2017"

[Jareth]

3 minutes ago, blandy said:

This is so wrong. For 2 reasons, firstly it's horribly divisive and prolongs the infighting and secondly because it seeks to learn absolutely nothing. There is a need to understand WHY these thwarters behaved as they did. If it was because they feared that (say) the leader was unfit to be PM, if it was because they were entirely motivated by self ambition and are bad eggs, if it was because...

Only when you understand why something happened, can you stop it happening again and move on. But just condemning people for having different views is not the way to go.

Dude, I'm a mate, I love this site, I paid (begrudgingly) £5 a month to keep it going - but on Labour I must ask you this - would you be happy if Labour staff sabotaged (and I don't use that word lightly) Starmer? 

[Jareth]

3 minutes ago, blandy said:

What did happen? Seriously. in 2017 what did [and who did  it] they do that stopped Labour winning?

Because I'm pretty sure I could point to all sorts of stuff from all parts of the Labour party that contributed. Not just those you have said " those who thwarted a Labour government in 2017"

Ian McNichol did not answer 90% of antisemitism complaints in order to create a crisis. That's not a conspiracy theory. 

He also did not answer Dent Coad's email for more resources after Grenfell. 

He chose not to answer. 

Edited April 19, 2020 by Jareth

[Davkaus]

People who stay in a party and undermine that party's chances in an election ought to be condemned and let go from the party. If they have no faith in the leader, fine, but you shouldn't stay in a party and work against it.

I had no faith in Corbyn as leader or as a potential PM. If I was an elected representative, I'd have resigned the whip if I felt that strongly.

Edited April 19, 2020 by Davkaus

[Seat68]

1 minute ago, Jareth said:

Dude, I'm a mate, I love this site, I paid (begrudgingly) £5 a month to keep it going - but on Labour I must ask you this - would you be happy if Labour staff sabotaged (and I don't use that word lightly) Starmer? 

Outside of your Labour bubble Corbyn thwarted a labour victory. Labour members can come up with various reasons but speak to voters that turned away and your answer will be Corbyn. 

[Jareth]

Just now, Seat68 said:

Outside of your Labour bubble Corbyn thwarted a labour victory. Labour members can come up with various reasons but speak to voters that turned away and your answer will be Corbyn. 

Nope - look at the cities - they did not vote Tory - OK, Labour is powerless if they cannot court the towns - what is it they should say? 

[Jareth]

6 minutes ago, Davkaus said:

People who stay in a party and undermine that party's chances in an election ought to be condemned and let go from the party. If they have no faith in the leader, fine, but you shouldn't stay in a party and work against it.

I had no faith in Corbyn as leader or as a potential PM. If I was an elected representative, I'd have resigned the whip if I felt that strongly, not worked to ensure a Conservative victory. People work actively work against the party's chances in an election should be permanently dismissed from the party.

100% agree. Members voted Starmer by a majority - the same people who voted Corbyn - Labour does not have a future if it denies what happened. This has to be done quickly if we want a chance at the next election. 

Edited April 19, 2020 by Jareth

[blandy]

4 minutes ago, Jareth said:

Dude, I'm a mate, I love this site, I paid (begrudgingly) £5 a month to keep it going - but on Labour I must ask you this - would you be happy if Labour staff sabotaged (and I don't use that word lightly) Starmer? 

You are. You're a good man.

Anyway, I'm not a Labour member or anything. I consider myself to be of the left - all the surveys etc consistently put me there. Now as to the question, answering as someone who wants a competent non-tory government, desperately, I think he could only be sabotaged if there's something to sabotage. I don't think Corbyn was sabotaged in 2017. I think he did better than most expected to be honest. The tories and May were appallingly bad and people saw that and voting reflected that. Lots of mistakes were made, many around Corbyn himself, but he also did well in some areas - the rallies, the engaging with people, the focus not on Brexit, but wider stuff. Their manifesto was OK, though daft in parts. Their organisation wan't brilliant, but overall they did respectably well, given the circs and having a divisive leader (in the country, broadly).

2019 was a shitshow from start to finish, mind. But they should have potted him before then, ideally.

Starmer - people making efforts to "sabotage him" would be daft, but I'm sure a few will try. The angry tramps won't vanish from Labour of their own free will [and no, I don't include any VT'ers in that group, for clarity - I mean the numpties on twitter, and the acolytes like McLuskey, Milne, Formby, Murphy etc.].