The Chairman Mao resembling, Monarchy hating, threat to Britain, Labour Party thread

[blandy]

34 minutes ago, Genie said:

More pressure on Labour to be less Tory

He is SNP. It’s in their interests to try and dissuade Scots from supporting Labour.

[Genie]

Just now, blandy said:

He is SNP. It’s in their interests to try and dissuade Scots from supporting Labour.

Yeah, I get the agenda… but it’s also very true.

[ml1dch]

7 hours ago, blandy said:

All opinions have the same weight, but I completely disagree. Labour hasn’t been playing the short game, it’s been the long game since Starmer took over. The whole strategy he’s followed has been and continues to be a long term one. Of course there have been and are things he’s needed to do in the short term, but all of them have been in support of the long term. He’s been aided by Tory implosion, but still it’s impressive from an observer’s standpoint, to see what he’s doing, because it’s completely different to what any other party leader has done.

It’s not without risk. The two main risks are that internally, Labour people go off on one and secondly that when it comes to election time people (voters) will not like the truth, but will want lies and unfulfillable promises spoon feeding to them.

On the broader political picture I think that's all absolutely right.

However on the very narrow Brexit subject, I think that @bickster is correct. Starmer putting his Brexit hat on for the next election is definitely the quickest and easiest way to win back most of the seats lost in 2019, but once you find yourself having to defend your new keep-hard-Brexit-and-make-it-work position, it's then difficult to make the pivot that most of your supporters are expecting you to make further down the line to "closer relations". Unless you do it quickly (betraying your Brexit knobber voters all over again), you're having to admit to your own failures.

They've taken the position that they have for very understandable reasons but unless they are both very clever and very lucky they're going to find themselves having to make a very difficult case that nobody on either side is going to like.

Edited July 19, 2023 by ml1dch

[blandy]

9 minutes ago, ml1dch said:

They've taken the position that they have for very understandable reasons but unless they are both very clever and very lucky they're going to find themselves having to make a very difficult case that nobody on either side is going to like.

Yes, that’s probably right. None of the main parties in England want to talk about Brexit, but quite a large number of voters do. Mostly remain voters. I guess Labour is hoping that most accept another campaign and referendum is really not a good idea right now and at least let a less rabid government try and make it work less badly. But like you say, it’ll annoy plenty.

[Genie]

They should just re-join the EU in all but name. Keep the throbbers who have no idea about the technicalities happy because we’re still out, but then actually do the best for the UK by removing all the barriers.

Open up a legal route for migrants or allow then to apply from overseas, that’ll stop (most of) the boats immediately. 

Edited July 19, 2023 by Genie

[Chindie]

[Demitri_C]

3 hours ago, Chindie said:

They talk alot about taxing the rich more yet when asking them questions like this they rpely like this. No wonder the SNP call them tories version 2

[snowychap]

On 19/07/2023 at 12:57, blandy said:

I thought you'd asked what other policies he would also drop/de-prioritise that were not on the list

Yeah, sure.

[blandy]

On 19/07/2023 at 09:56, blandy said:

So I think Starmer is going to be offering to get the car through an MoT test, but not offering alloy wheels and a posh stereo

On 19/07/2023 at 10:11, snowychap said:

Would you care to list out some of the policies that you believe come under this heading, please?

You've taken time to list some of the things that you think are the necessary to make the car roadworthy but not spelt out what you think are in the above category.

Just so I'm clear as to the types of things that are your alloy wheels and posh stereo, could you give me a couple of examples otherwise I'm left thinking that it's every policy that Starmer et al. have dropped/shifted on since his election as Labour leader.

 

I made a category. You asked what examples I believed went in my Category. I gave you examples. You've decided somehow that my category was Starmer's 10 pledges. I never once said that.

[snowychap]

15 hours ago, blandy said:

I made a category. You asked what examples I believed went in my Category. I gave you examples. You've decided somehow that my category was Starmer's 10 pledges. I never once said that.

I initally made a comment about Starmer's pledges, you responded to that saying 'he says things which are probably a mix of what he believed at the time and what he felt he needed to say to win enough votes to become leader, but which he wasn't that bothered about' (i.e. things he said).

In asking which ones of those were alloy wheels and posh stereos, you've then widened this to include at least two things which didn't really figure, if at all, in Starmer's policy directions but about which you've been very vocally derogatory and dismissive whilst claiming that what you've posted 'isn't about my views of Labour, or Starmer or Labour policy' but your perception of Labour party strategy thus distancing yourself from any accusation that you, too, may see the two child benefit cap as 'alloy wheels and a posh stereo', for example.

This comes across as disingenuous, at best.

You're attempting to eat your cake, digest it, poo it out and replate it claiming that it was someone else's cake all along.

 

[chrisp65]

38 minutes ago, snowychap said:

You're attempting to eat your cake, digest it, poo it out and replate it claiming that it was someone else's cake all along.

 

One girl ate that cake and was so ill she vomited up her pelvis.

 

[markavfc40]

That Selby and Ainsty by election result was some achievement for Labour. The biggest majority they have ever overturned by some way with a 23% swing from Tory to Labour. 

The Uxbridge result was disappointing for them but that was definitely down to a local issue and ULEZ. Even so that still saw a 7% swing from Tory to Labour.

You throw into the mix that the Lib Dems did their bit by overturning a a 19k Tory majority in Somerton and Froome (a 29% swing) then I think overall Labour will be really pleased with last nights results and as things stand it points to the Tories being crushed at the next election.

[Anthony]

10 minutes ago, markavfc40 said:

The Uxbridge result was disappointing for them but that was definitely down to a local issue and ULEZ. Even so that still saw a 7% swing from Tory to Labour. 

Is interesting in light of what @blandywas saying up thread about voters not wanting the truth. With ULEZ the number of people affected will be relatively small (and shrinking), yet a large number vote against it on principle. 

Edited July 21, 2023 by Anthony

[bickster]

1 minute ago, Anthony said:

With ULEZ the number of people affected will be relatively small (and shrinking), yet a large number vote against it on principle

Isn't the ULEZ aspect of the local anger the bit the media have latched onto but the real issue is the LTNs ?

[Rodders]

28 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

One girl ate that cake and was so ill she vomited up her pelvis.

 

it's a f**king disgrace

[blandy]

2 hours ago, chrisp65 said:

One girl ate that cake and was so ill she vomited up her pelvis.

 

What is Cake? Well, it has an active ingredient which is a dangerous psychoactive compound known as dimesmeric andersonphosphate. It stimulates the part of the brain called Shatner's Bassoon. And that's the bit of the brain that deals with time perception. So, a second feels like a month.

So, I must be on cake, given the symptoms recently experienced.

[blandy]

2 hours ago, Anthony said:

With ULEZ the number of people affected will be relatively small (and shrinking), yet a large number vote against it on principle. 

I don't know why they voted against it, but I imagine being faced with having to pay £12 a day to use your own car might be a bit of a blow to many. And like you say, add in a bunch of people who probably hate "green crap" on principle and it's bound to be a factor in the result. It'll probably mean Starmer is even more reticent about promising anything remotely disturbing of the more small c conservative thinking of people. I hope that doesn't stop Labour, if they get in, from doing what is necessary once they're in.

[Jareth]

Well I think what Labour have learned from all this is that to have any policy on anything at all in any substantive way, is a huge mistake when you are ahead in the polls. Looking forward to seeing what they want to do, about 6 months after the election. 

[Davkaus]

The "funny" thing about ULEZ, specifically the expansion in London, is that it's a Conservative national government policy, that they're forcing Labour local politicians to implement, then having the local tory candidates bang the war drums about how disgraceful it is, and then ignorant voters lap it up and start calling Khan a dickhead for doing it.

[blandy]

7 minutes ago, Jareth said:

Well I think what Labour have learned from all this is that to have any policy on anything at all in any substantive way, is a huge mistake when you are ahead in the polls. Looking forward to seeing what they want to do, about 6 months after the election. 

Yep. I think they already knew that, but it re-inforces it, perhaps. It's probably a reason why Starmer has ditched quite a few things that Labour has come up with - that thing Milliband developed about spending 28 billion a year on Green transformation being another example. Loads of stuff from the last manifesto, stuff that left leaning people like when it's floated by thinktanks or Unions or whatever.

They/he haven't completely thrown out the baby with the bathwater, but there's so little media focus on the stuff they still say they'll do that people don't really see any difference between Labour and Tories on the issues in the media coverage. But it's the stuff not in the limelight where the differences are much clearer, because they've got the space to propose and think through stuff without it being subjected to so much negative propaganda.