The ISIS threat to Europe

[mjmooney]

OK. How about this? Sexuality is not a choice. Sexual behaviour IS. You can be 'born gay', but choose not to engage in homosexual behaviour, due to societal pressure. Pretty hellish, but presumably quite common. Or you could be born straight, and choose to be celibate (perhaps due to psychological or religious reasons). Or - best of both worlds - you could be born bisexual, and ultimately settle for one side or the other (perhaps due to finding 'the right person', to whom you could be happily faithful). My point is that 'what we are' and 'what we do' are not easily separable phenomena. Someone who is gay, and acts upon their inclinations, IS making a 'lifestyle choice'. A very good, natural and sensible one, in my opinion. The problem is that some people would disagree with that opinion, and think that it is better to act against one's nature, due to some misguided notions about 'sin'. 

Edited June 14, 2016 by mjmooney

[snowychap]

7 minutes ago, CarewsEyebrowDesigner said:

Seems the shooter was a regular at the nightclub and had a profile on a gay dating app.

Yep, that's what this report claims:

Quote

The man behind the worst mass shooting in recent US history visited the gay nightclub where he carried out the massacre several times, witnesses say.

Chris Callen, a performer at Pulse in Orlando, Florida, told the New York Daily News that Omar Mateen had visited the venue over the past three years.

...

"I've seen him a couple of times at Pulse, a couple of other people that I've spoken with, including an-ex security guard, have actually witnessed this guy at Pulse many times before," said Chris Callen.

In one incident, Mr Callen said Mateen pulled a knife on a friend after being angered by a religious joke.

Despite this, Mr Callen said Mateen was a "nice guy... Maybe he got radicalised and hated who he was."

"Sometimes he would go over in the corner and sit and drink by himself, and other times he would get so drunk he was loud and belligerent," Ty Smith told the Orlando Sentinel.

And another man, Kevin West, told the Washington Post he saw Mateen walking into Pulse in the early hours of Sunday, having already met him through dating app Jack'd.

"I remember details," said Mr West. "I never forget a face."

...more on link

 

[Wainy316]

23 minutes ago, mjmooney said:

OK. How about this? Sexuality is not a choice. Sexual behaviour IS. You can be 'born gay', but choose not to engage in homosexual behaviour, due to societal pressure.

That about sums it up.

[villakram]

In modern society all opinions are valid. How exactly we arrived at this ridiculous state of affairs is not anywhere near as clear.

[blandy]

2 hours ago, villakram said:

In modern society all opinions are valid

Maybe they're often taken as such, but I don't think they are or should be ( (I think maybe that's your point?) .

There's a whole thing now where people dismiss expert opinion, where they demand that the opinion of a general person in the street be treated equally to that of (e.g.) a scientist or a doctor or an engineer...

There's a false thing where broadcasters opt for "Balance" by always having (e.g.) two sides of an argument given equal weight on their broadcasts, when the weight of evidence is 90% v 10% or whatever.

The other day in the EU thing the Out man, Gove used "we're fed up of experts" as an argument as to why opinion should be disregarded (because it didn't support his case). It's mental.

If you're implying that how we got to where we are as partly come about because of the ignoring of expert opinion, and undue weight being given to uninformed "opinion" then I totally agree.

[Chindie]

@blandy - Reminds me of this...

 

[blandy]

29 minutes ago, Chindie said:

@blandy - Reminds me of this...

Excellent, that. "Get in the f...ing sack" - exactly!..

[MakemineVanilla]

40 minutes ago, blandy said:

Maybe they're often taken as such, but I don't think they are or should be ( (I think maybe that's your point?) .

There's a whole thing now where people dismiss expert opinion, where they demand that the opinion of a general person in the street be treated equally to that of (e.g.) a scientist or a doctor or an engineer...

There's a false thing where broadcasters opt for "Balance" by always having (e.g.) two dies of an argument given equal weight on their broadcasts, when the weight of evidence is 90% v 10% or whatever.

The other day in the EU thing the Out man, Gove used "we're fed up of experts" as an argument as to why opinion should be disregarded (because it didn't support his case). It's mental.

If you're implying that how we got to where we are as partly come about because of the ignoring of expert opinion, and undue weight being given to uninformed "opinion" then I totally agree.

It is most annoying when you quote or paraphrase an expert, a social historian say, and their considered opinion which has been arrived at through much research and thought, is dismissed by someone as 'bollocks' after thinking about it for only a few minutes. 

[villakram]

1 hour ago, blandy said:

Maybe they're often taken as such, but I don't think they are or should be ( (I think maybe that's your point?) .

There's a whole thing now where people dismiss expert opinion, where they demand that the opinion of a general person in the street be treated equally to that of (e.g.) a scientist or a doctor or an engineer...

There's a false thing where broadcasters opt for "Balance" by always having (e.g.) two dies of an argument given equal weight on their broadcasts, when the weight of evidence is 90% v 10% or whatever.

The other day in the EU thing the Out man, Gove used "we're fed up of experts" as an argument as to why opinion should be disregarded (because it didn't support his case). It's mental.

If you're implying that how we got to where we are as partly come about because of the ignoring of expert opinion, and undue weight being given to uninformed "opinion" then I totally agree.

Nail-head. This is just a really tricky thing to write online as it can be all too trivially re/mis-interpreted as being a snobby know it all elitist who is out of touch or some such other waffle. I was motivated to write that by the "just my opinion" line from @mjmooney earlier. Some things are so clear that one's special snowflake opinion does not matter a jot. You are wrong! That we as a society, all too often, have to cast such clearcut things as basic human decency/rights as a lowly "my opinion" is a sad state of affairs.

[snowychap]

CIA has not found any link between Orlando killer and Isis, says agency chief

Quote

The Central Intelligence Agency chief has not been “able to uncover any link” between Orlando killer Omar Mateen and the Islamic State, despite Mateen’s stated allegiance to the jihadist group during Sunday’s LGBT nightclub massacre.

Reinforcing four days of internal government assessments across multiple agencies and a Federal Bureau of Investigation inquiry, the CIA director, John Brennan, contrasted “lone wolf” killers in Orlando and San Bernardino last December with recent terrorist attacks in Paris and Brussels, which he told the Senate intelligence committee were “directed” by Isis leadership in Syria and Iraq.

...more on link

 

[omariqy]

I think the fact that he pledged his allegiance to 3 or 4 different groups who all hate each other and are to some extents at war with each other shows how serious he was about it.

[ccfcman]

It's rather simple. His father, inadvertently threw him under the bus with his "God will judge the gay lads" type video.

The psychotic and deranged killer comes from a repressed and regressive homophobic background. It has as much to do with religion as quantum mechanics - nothing. Homophobes can curry favour with like minded individuals by wrapping it up in religion, it is insipidus and revolting. That his father spoke so viciously about homosexuality shows a clear pattern. That we now learn the psychotic and deranged killer (yes that's the second time I called it like it is) was in fact a patron of the club in question and frequented other gay bars and used apps of that nature tells us he was pretty normal. Just another married man who is in fact bisexual or gay.

To then run through a who's who of all the bad boy terrorist groups was a **** up way of sparing his families blushes. What could be worse than murder? Being gay in his family.

This is terrorism for sure, for those that aren't aware most terrorism is carried about by white Christians, they just get a pass because of skin colour and their bible. However it has no link to Daesh what so ever. They would claim a lottery win if they thought it forwarded their modus operandi.

[ccfcman]

I'm no fan of Family Guy but this sums it up the real problem with the massacre in Orlando. It is fortuitous for gun rights activists that this American born man was not white.

[Chindie]

I agree with you.

However it's hard not to factor in that his father was such a homophobe because of, at least in part, his religion. After all we've had from the horse's mouth that Islam (like other religions including yes Christianity) according to strict interpretation of its holy texts declares homosexual people as sinners (at best). Unfortunately Islam has not quite developed to the point that others have where, largely, homosexuality has become, if not accepted in some cases, less of an issue. This is true of many things in Islam, which is a religion, in its more strict and conservative adherents, in dire need of growing up.

But yes, I still don't think it's terribly clear he really was doing this in the name of whatever Islamic fundamentalist cult is fashionable this week. And there's certainly a convincing argument to call him a terrorist nonetheless, to go along with mass murderer, and to make his father really proud, likely closeted homosexual.

[ccfcman]

Just now, Chindie said:

I agree with you.

However it's hard not to factor in that his father was such a homophobe because of, at least in part, his religion. After all we've had from the horse's mouth that Islam (like other religions including yes Christianity) according to strict interpretation of its holy texts declares homosexual people as sinners (at best). Unfortunately Islam has not quite developed to the point that others have where, largely, homosexuality has become, if not accepted in some cases, less of an issue. This is true of many things in Islam, which is a religion, in its more strict and conservative adherents, in dire need of growing up.

Let's draw a simple and odd comparison. 

Hooligans in Marseille and Lille - s that in the name of football? Of course it isn't we hate them for ruining the sport we love. Football is a catalyst to allow such behaviour cultivate, it is also a disgusting and revolting reasoning.

Most homophobes aren't religious. They don't like it because it is different, they were told it's wrong. That it is suggested to be a sin is a convenient argument. The Christian Bible which of course has had many many alterations only shunned homosexuality late into the 16th century when the last openly gay Pope - Julius III croaked it. There were a succession of gay popes - John XII (955-964), Benedict IX (1033-1045; 1047-1048), John  XXII (1316-1334), Paul II (1464-1471), Sixtus IV (1471-1484), Julius II  (1503-1513), and Leo X (1513-1521) and who know whom else before or after.

Homosexuality as a sin is only a relatively recent adaptation to Christianity, given how it was a frequently amended fantasy novel, another book from the same Sci-Fi/Fantasy section - the Qu'ran can be expected to have such similar amendments and consequently a more recent dismissal of homosexuality

[Chindie]

3 minutes ago, ccfcman said:

Let's draw a simple and odd comparison. 

Hooligans in Marseille and Lille - s that in the name of football? Of course it isn't we hate them for ruining the sport we love. Football is a catalyst to allow such behaviour cultivate, it is also a disgusting and revolting reasoning.

Most homophobes aren't religious. They don't like it because it is different, they were told it's wrong. That it is suggested to be a sin is a convenient argument. The Christian Bible which of course has had many many alterations only shunned homosexuality late into the 16th century when the last openly gay Pope - Julius III croaked it. There were a succession of gay popes - John XII (955-964), Benedict IX (1033-1045; 1047-1048), John  XXII (1316-1334), Paul II (1464-1471), Sixtus IV (1471-1484), Julius II  (1503-1513), and Leo X (1513-1521) and who know whom else before or after.

Homosexuality as a sin is only a relatively recent adaptation to Christianity, given how it was a frequently amended fantasy novel, another book from the same Sci-Fi/Fantasy section - the Qu'ran can be expected to have such similar amendments and consequently a more recent dismissal of homosexuality

I think you're making some excuses there but I'd raise a point on the Quran. The Quran hasn't been adapted a great deal like the Bible has. The Bible has of course has whole sections excised and it's been translated so many times its difficult to take seriously.

That hasn't happened with the Quran. As it's taken as the actual word of God, a problem for Islam in today's world, it changes very little over very long lengths of time as to edit it is to edit the word of God, a great sin no doubt. A very old Quran was found in Birmingham University only last year and was found to be exceptionally similar to a modern Quran.

The Quran treats homosexuality like it does adultery, both sins. The hadith, on the other hand, suggests it's a crime punishable by death. And again the hadith hasn't changed a lot either. So whilst it may be the case that the Bible has had the anti-gay stuff added in later, Islam has it in its very foundations.

[villakram]

I suggest you also pay attention to who his father is... and this leads right to the heart of things back when the Soviets were the bad guys and the jihadi were the good guys!

[VillaChris]

Gunshots and blasts at Istanbul Ataturk airport apparently....here we go again.

Edited June 28, 2016 by VillaChris

[rjw63]

Two suicide bombers according to reports

[villakram]

heading over there for a conference at the start of August... fun, fun, fun 

one of the explosions

pic.twitter.com/Npikwlloxk

 

 

Edited June 28, 2016 by villakram