Paul Lambert

[TRO]

At times reading this thread is akin to self harm for those too lazy to find something sharp. *

 

 

(*Not directed at any particular contributor to the discussion, more a general observation)

 

I suppose its a "if the cap fits wear it"

[suttonpaul]

Us, We - This is getting pathetic.

[CrackpotForeigner]

Oh for a win. We all get along so nicely after one of those.

[TRO]

No argument there TRO, but I've spotted something: ( )

 

Everyone was after Kompany. Man City got first dibs, because they've got: money.

 look that is a cop out too....Man city can't sign every living player thats any good.

 

Before PSG /Man city/Chelsea etc all the latest power houses.......There was AC Milan/Inter Milan/Liverpoll/Man U...even Blackburn and Nottingham Forest had a moment in the sun.

 

The amounts of money have changed not unsurprisingly with time......but the principles have been withs us for decades......same song different tune.

 

We can't keep hiding behind ....Money.....otherwise we might as well pack up and go home.

[briny_ear]

Us, We - This is getting pathetic.

If that was a comment on  my post, at the risk of raising the accusation of being patronising again, you haven't understood the point I am making.

Edited March 31, 2014 by briny_ear

[TRO]

Oh for a win. We all get along so nicely after one of those.

 

....only until we get one of those juicy....oh to get my teeth in to, defeats....little buggers I love em. lol

 

oh for a good ole moan...wouldn't be the same would it.

 

God if we had Suarez, this site would need tumbleweed. 

Edited March 31, 2014 by TRO

[briny_ear]

 

Oh for a win. We all get along so nicely after one of those.

 

....only until we get one of those juicy....oh to get my teeth in to, defeats....little buggers I love em. lol

 

oh for a good ole moan...wouldn't be the same would it.

 

God if we had Suarez, this site would need tumbleweed. 

 

Mentioning Suarez and getting your teeth into something juicy in the same post seems a bit risky.

[suttonpaul]

I get it and don't care for your point at all.

 

Nit picking

[shaggy]

Shaggy, if you're going to start your reply to my post with "Absolute rubbish..." I won't be apologising for taking a patronising tone. I do think that you very much have stated your opinion to sound like fact. Let's agree to disagree on that and Lambert's transfer policy.

 

It does seem like you're missing the point of a lot of what people are saying here in general, though. Stating your opinion followed by "think about that for a moment" is also a bit patronising and unnecessary.

 

Your arguments are good, excellent, even, but they assume a manager with a giant pot of money at his disposal. That is not the case, so start factoring that in, please.

I haven't asked you to apologise and didn't expect you to. I stated my opinion and it was nothing more than that. I also can't be responsible for you misinterpreting the think about it comment. I was asking the poster to think about the contradiction in what he had said and what he had said in other posts.

Not agreeing with what someone has stated is not the same thing as missing the point. In other posts I have acknowledged the lack of funding our manager has had and my opinion isn't based on a manager with 'a giant pot of gold.' It's based on a general lack of improvement in how we play and our results some of which have been horrendous.

If lambert is given a new contract based on what we've all seen so far then I won't renew my st as I feel I can't justify the money for the frustration anymore and it doesn't make me a bad fan in saying that but it's the only way I can say to the board enough is enough.

[terrytini]

 

Shaggy, if you're going to start your reply to my post with "Absolute rubbish..." I won't be apologising for taking a patronising tone. I do think that you very much have stated your opinion to sound like fact. Let's agree to disagree on that and Lambert's transfer policy.

 

It does seem like you're missing the point of a lot of what people are saying here in general, though. Stating your opinion followed by "think about that for a moment" is also a bit patronising and unnecessary.

 

Your arguments are good, excellent, even, but they assume a manager with a giant pot of money at his disposal. That is not the case, so start factoring that in, please.

 

He undoubtedly has had a difficult time with small funds, but as Stan Collymore mooted on air ....villa must find another way.This miserly funds scenario is nothing new.Martin O'Neill was probably blessed with more funds than any other manager in our history, pro rata.

 

I have a been hearing of our award winning youth academy, being one of the best in the country.....don't tell me show me.? where are the luke shaws, the llana's, the ross barkley's

 

We keep playing the same record of excuses.... to get a team to defend doesn't cost the massive sums it does to get them to score...Shaun Teale, Ugo...... what about Kompany @ 6 mill.

 

Its all about talent spotting and managing.....and in 2 seasons we have acheived a gnats willy.

 

I dont disagree with a fair bit of what you say at various times but I really think you need a reality check on your major theme of talent spotting ...you quote Barkley, Shaw, Llana - they plus a tiny handful of others is about it.

Arsenal have one of the best youth set ups in the world - how often have they brought a youngster through for Premiership football in the last 15 years ? I'm sure somone will have the stats but it aint many - and thats Arsenal. What about Man United ? Chelsea have invested millions in youth - where are they all ? And those clubs cherry pick the best, by far.

I agree talent needs bringing through - who wouldn't ? But I think your hopes are unfounded. As for coaching and management - again, who wouldn't agree, but, again as we have seen at so many Clubs, it isn't just a thing that you work on and then it is all fine. Even watching the Champions League we see players every week making the most basic mistakes. It is just what it is.

As for fans suggestions 'Kompany at 6 mill' - I have never been interested in that road - do you not think every other Manager on the planet would have snapped him up ! It isn't like that.

I know you are a fan of Saunders - again, who isn't - but he was no genius, he needed time, trial, and error - Tommy Craig ? Dave Geddis ?, - (and how many of our then succesful youths played regular first team after their Cup success ?) - It was far far easier then aswell, there was strong scottish grass roots football, and the fact that you could only name 12 players meant that big Clubs getting all the best players hadn't yet happened.

[terrytini]

I think it is funny how some see 'lowered expectations' almost as a term of abuse, and almost spit it out when it comes to Lerner having 'done a good job lowering expectations' - when I , and others, see it as a very positive, realistic, healthy thing, and would genuinely say the Board (Faulkner) have done well to communicate this to fans on more than 1 occassion.

If only the rest would lower theirs too, the atmosphere on these boards and at the ground would improve a million fold.

It is simply being realistic, there is nothing inherently negative about it at all. There is every argument for saying the Clubs currently teetering on the edge of oblivion wouold have done better had the had lowered expectations.

It has nothing to do with ambition, idealism, romance, aspiration, or anything else. They can all quite easily sit alongside. The problem is the expect bit. Like the West Ham fans boo-ing a win because it didn't fit what they expected.

[terrytini]

 

No argument there TRO, but I've spotted something: ( )

 

Everyone was after Kompany. Man City got first dibs, because they've got: money.

 look that is a cop out too....Man city can't sign every living player thats any good.

 

Before PSG /Man city/Chelsea etc all the latest power houses.......There was AC Milan/Inter Milan/Liverpoll/Man U...even Blackburn and Nottingham Forest had a moment in the sun.

 

The amounts of money have changed not unsurprisingly with time......but the principles have been withs us for decades......same song different tune.

 

We can't keep hiding behind ....Money.....otherwise we might as well pack up and go home.

 

Sorry I couldnt find this post when I typed the earlier - duh brainache ! - .

This is what I mean - those decade old principles barely apply.

In 1979 you had Liverpool, maybe a bit Arsenal, and a jaded Man United, each naming 12 players a week. Lets say thet got a couple extra - maybe 14 ? Now you have at least 6 Clubs with clout and squads more than double that. The players just aren't there in anywhere near the numbers. Nowhere near.

[terrytini]

It IS pretty much about money, and if any of us had ANY sense at all we WOULD all pack up and go home !!!!

But we have none, thank goodness, so we all carry on like this !!!!

[briny_ear]

I get it and don't care for your point at all.

 

Nit picking

It isn't nit picking, so I'm thinking maybe you don't get it. 

 

The point I'm making is that a claim to represent what "we as a club" are trying to achieve is only valid if there has been some public process of setting out those objectives. Since the collapse of the MON project to achieve European football within 5 years, there has been very little public communication from the club about what the board hope to achieve, short, medium or long term. I would say this uncertainty and lack of communication with fans is at the heart of much of the present discontent with the team and its performances and sparks much of the debate on this site. We don't know what the board's intentions are, nor how they see the future. Much of the general discussion on this site (e.g. in threads like this) consists of people trying to imagine what the board are about and others disputing their guesses.

 

So for a poster to come along and pronounce authoritatively about what "we as a club" are trying to achieve begs all sorts of questions. The problem with this sort of argument is that you can make up whatever you like about what "the club" is aiming to achieve to fit the facts of how we are actually performing. So we have a squad at present that is just about able to keep us in the premier league (although how long that can last is open to question) and we are told that the squad IS adequate for what "we as a club are to are trying to achieve", which turns out magically to be...just about surviving in the premier league. This is completely circular and in fact just emphasises that there is no agreed understanding of what the board is trying to achieve. 

 

One thing I do want to agree with Gentleman is that the squad will be utterly transformed in two years' time because I hope by then we will have a new owner and manager. 

 

And perhaps they will be a bit more open with the fans about their intentions.

[suttonpaul]

The board haven't been vocal at any point Randy has only given one interview I think?

 

I got the point I just completely disagree and think it is very clear what the clubs intentions are.

[Anything11]

We aren't going to be able to compete financially with the top half of the league and just because we are Aston Villa and have a proud history does not mean that we deserve anything better. People need to grow up and stop thinking that its their right to demand the club perform to their expectations while blindly ignoring all constraints that the club has. Unless you have the 200m to buy the club plus the funds to maintain a top 8 club for 10/15/20 years to come then cut the sh$t and get realistic.

 

We are buying players for 800K and they are expected to be world beaters? This is going to be a slow progression from ridding the club of the financial mess it was into becoming a stable top half side. We tried to cash splash route and it almost relegated us.

 

People crap on about not wanting to give Lambert any more money as if he has just blown in all on dross. Who else do you think could have purchased players for the prices we have payed and kept us ticking over? Maybe Martinez would be a shout but thats about it. Do you honestly think Lambert isnt as frustrated as the rest of us with the inability of the team to play consistently? He gives nothing away in interviews win or lose and most managers in the PL do the same and every remark they make has the potential of getting turned into a media storm. Do you really think a man who changes formation multiple times per match has the only tactic of "kick it to benteke"? Things are nowhere near as simple as people make out.

 

Majority of villa fans need to grow up. There are people on twitter calling for Hoddle to be put in charge and to bring back bent and ireland into the fold. Talk about moronic.

 

We need time as a club to find our feet and Lambert is giving us that. If we have made no progession by the end of next season then i will concede he isn't the right man for the job and should move on but i will be thankful for his work getting us through the last couple of years including relegation battles and wage bill clear outs. Not many managers come through these things well and to me he is doing a pretty good job (except the stoke game - f**k stoke).

[smetrov]

I am still for giving Lambo more time. - If only because I couldn't face another Faulkner\Lerner manager hunt.

 

My concern is, should Bentekke leave in the summer - are we then any closer to being a good team than we were when Lambo arrived 2 seasons ago ?

[TrentVilla]

Are we (hope using we is okay with people) are better team than when he arrived? Yes with Benteke I would say we are, without him I don't think we can answer because we would obviously spend some or all of the money from his sale and its impossible to know how we would spend it.

 

I think though the biggest difference between when he arrived and now is that what we have is sustainable and a foundation to move forward on which is not what we had 2 years ago.

 

Two years ago we had a squad littered with high earning, under performing dross that were draining the club financially and in the new age of Lerner austerity meaning all the income the club had was going out in wages. With an owner unwilling to fund spending the way he had previously this was a dangerous position to be in. Especially given most of the players on big money had little or no resale value and little or no desire to move on.

 

Fast forward two years and most of those poor performing high paid players have gone and few if any with the possible exception of Ireland have done anything at their new clubs. Hopefully those that remain will go this season.

 

In their place we have, you would imagine due to financial constraints signed inexperienced, lower level young players with potential or who the manager believes have potential. Some will prove to be worthy of the trust and investment others won't but someone please show me a manager who gets every signing right. And when you are shopping at an average value of £3m a player you are taking more of a gamble on a players ability than most of your rivals in the league.

 

So net net in the two years the side might not be better or much better, but and this is the crucial thing for me. The side we had would have got worse these last two years and we wouldn't have had (I suspect) the available money to change player or spend on wages had Lambert not taken the approach he has.

 

Instead we have a young squad, which is sustainable financially which is looking capable of a mid table finish. That could prove to be the basis of growth and improvement in the next couple of years where we should in theory have money to invest on more established players to improve the side without having to worry about what we already have, their wages and the fact they are seemingly in semi retirement.

 

There have been some horror shows in these last two years, no question. There have been some bad signings, no question. Lambert has made some bad decisions, no doubt about it.

 

But for me at least, with the financial constraints I think everyone must surely now accept he is working within I think he is doing a decent job. More importantly I think he is being brave in his decisions, making his life harder in the short term to try and make the club better in the long term rather than the sort of approach McLeish took signing people like Given on 5 year deals.

 

I don't for one moment think Lambert is perfect or that he should be beyond criticism. I just wish sometimes the criticism took some of this stuff into account, that it was a little more in context of where the club was, is and perhaps will be.

 

People love to throw the 'lowered expectations' line around. Well 4 years ago my expectations were that we as a club tried to compete rather than exist as we did under Ellis, my hope then was for CL football. I think it would be foolish to hope for CL football, the landscape for both the club and within football has changed too much since then. But I still have the same expectations, I expect no less from the club I expect it to compete to try and improve and to try and have the aim of being better even if I've long since given up on CL football.

 

That isn't a lowering expectations, its just realism and its something we are all going to have to accept at least for the foreseeable feature. It isn't going to change under the current owner but I'm not going to get into a debate about him in this thread.

 

This summer is huge for the club and for Lambert as it should tell us where if anywhere we are going and what he can do when able to focus his spending on lower numbers of players and hopefully slightly higher quality.

 

Managers like O'Neill, Houllier and McLeish didn't really give a stuff about tomorrow about what was 12 months down the road let alione three years. (although in fairness O'Neill did initially look to buy young players)They were short term managers, making easy decisions as much for their benefit as the clubs, perhaps even more so. I think Lambert is different and sadly we needed a different approach in part because of the three that went before him but also because of our reckless owner.

 

Has the ride been enjoyable so far? No not especially but I do think the club is in a far better position than when he arrived and that is largely due to him. We can hopefully start looking up rather than down and I would hope see some better football.

 

Lambert was never my preferred choice for the job but over all I don't think he has done a bad one to date.

[shaggy]

We aren't going to be able to compete financially with the top half of the league and just because we are Aston Villa and have a proud history does not mean that we deserve anything better. People need to grow up and stop thinking that its their right to demand the club perform to their expectations while blindly ignoring all constraints that the club has. Unless you have the 200m to buy the club plus the funds to maintain a top 8 club for 10/15/20 years to come then cut the sh$t and get realistic.

 

We are buying players for 800K and they are expected to be world beaters? This is going to be a slow progression from ridding the club of the financial mess it was into becoming a stable top half side. We tried to cash splash route and it almost relegated us.

 

People crap on about not wanting to give Lambert any more money as if he has just blown in all on dross. Who else do you think could have purchased players for the prices we have payed and kept us ticking over? Maybe Martinez would be a shout but thats about it. Do you honestly think Lambert isnt as frustrated as the rest of us with the inability of the team to play consistently? He gives nothing away in interviews win or lose and most managers in the PL do the same and every remark they make has the potential of getting turned into a media storm. Do you really think a man who changes formation multiple times per match has the only tactic of "kick it to benteke"? Things are nowhere near as simple as people make out.

 

Majority of villa fans need to grow up. There are people on twitter calling for Hoddle to be put in charge and to bring back bent and ireland into the fold. Talk about moronic.

 

We need time as a club to find our feet and Lambert is giving us that. If we have made no progession by the end of next season then i will concede he isn't the right man for the job and should move on but i will be thankful for his work getting us through the last couple of years including relegation battles and wage bill clear outs. Not many managers come through these things well and to me he is doing a pretty good job (except the stoke game - f**k stoke).

Did you thank Mcleish for doing a similar job and if he had still been our manager would you be defending him as much as lambert.

It's not a case of the fans growing up at all. It's actually a case of some of our fans being far too **** patient with a lack of investment from the chairman. Look at the grief Doug got for doing the same thing.

I've seen people saying this on site that we can't afford this and we can't afford that. Is it not simply a case of we won't afford this and we won't afford that. I mean our chairman isn't exactly short of a few pound is he after selling up in America.

He also has a decent income coming in through gate receipts and other revenue and if his goal is to be self sufficient then that's fine but tell that to the other clubs in the Premiership who go into manageable debt to improve and show ambition.

You don't have to do a Leeds or Portsmouth to push the club on because with a little more investment and we're talking well short of the three figure millions that has been stated on here we could push back into the top 6-7 and then sustain that with the extra income from placement and TV revenue.

I'm afraid it is all about showing ambition and that lack of ambition has pushed several of our better players to other clubs and it has now spread to the fan base who have lowered their expectation levels to just staying in the Premiership and if that's where our expectation lies then that's where we're going to be until that fan base shows some **** balls as they did with Mcleish and tell the board that the level of investment and performance over the past two seasons is simply not acceptable and not **** good enough for this great club.

[GENTLEMAN]

 

The squad IS good enough for what we are trying to achieve as a football club currently. We are expected to retain our place in the league and that is an achievement for us. 

 

Gentleman. I'm intrigued about who the "we" is in those sentences. Who are you speaking on behalf of when you state what "WE" are trying to achieve "as a football club"? Is that the board, the management team, the fans? When was this common objective set out and agreed by whoever is included in the "WE"?

 

Since it turns out the objective is survival in the premier league (apparently an "achievement"), I'd like to mention that no-one ran that one by me and got my agreement, so count me out of the "WE".

 

I will but I am still using "WE" in my posts about us.