Thomas Hitzlsperger

[Con]

Well, I find reducing human beings to a series of bogus stats and bollocks reasoning, as if being gay were a mere statistical curiosity, to be highly inconsiderate and if it weren't so laughably bizarre it would be pretty offensive too.

 

Don't be so melodramatic.  I did not claim my suggestion gay men represent 0.5-1.0% of Premier League footballers was an accurate statistic. 

 

It was an estimate based on the known fact that the representation of gay men in pro-sports is lower than their representation in the wider population.

 

Various methodologies put the latter figure between 1.0 - 6.0%. One of the latest estimates based on five studies puts the figure at 1.7%.  The representation in professional football will be lower than whatever this number is.

 

Before you call this "bogus" why don't you add some reasoning to the discussion?

 

It is also well-known that the representation of lesbians in pro-sports is higher than their representation in the wider population. That is one reason why when a lesbian professional comes out it hardly makes the news. About a decade ago, the count was 30% of female pro-golfers known to be out.

 

It's highly likely the reason why there are so many female lesbian sports professionals is related to the reason why there are so few gay men sport professionals.

[dont_do_it_doug.]

It felt like a spot of bullying to me.

Really? That's what you take from the responses to what a poster claimed to be a "reasoned argument" and now refers to as "something approaching a sexuality law of sports" which is true because "everyone in the media knows it too (after a couple of pints)".

People were responding to the poster's conclusions (i.e. guesswork) and his workings (based on figures that you agree he has, probably, pulled out of his arse) and then to the fact that he continued down that road, apparently oblivious to any shortcomings with either the results or method.

Perhaps the references to Barry Bannan, heat maps and gifs suggested that this wasn't a topic on which other people felt his 'analysis' was even open to rebuttal or that they had tired of trying to engage with this kind of stuff in other areas.

I wish I'd had some prior experience also leading me to that conclusion because it would have saved me from the accusation of 'feigned ignorance' which was to follow.

I said feigned incredulous reaction, not ignorance and if you'll note I was then careful to say that I wasn't accusing everyone of that but that those posts with solid points to make became lost in the sea of ridiculousness.

I don't care enough to argue the point too deeply.

[dont_do_it_doug.]

Using stats to explain sexuality and then claiming more gays are hairdressers and accountants - like there is a structure to sexuality - is just the most pathetic thing I have ever read.

It isn't though is it? Maybe there's some use to it, maybe not. Regardless it isn't harming anyone. I find that suggestion absurd.

[snowychap]

I said feigned incredulous reaction, not ignorance...

I'm sorry if you read my post as misreading your comment. I was, in fact, referring to this:

snowychap, do you not agree with the basic proposition that women's sports has a higher proportion of lesbians to athletes than in the whole population, while in men's sports there is a lower proportion of gays than in the whole population? I'm not sure if there are any official statistics on this - there must be some - but it is something approaching a sexuality law of sports. everyone in the media, after a couple of pints, knows it too so surely ignorance must be feigned?

[NurembergVillan]

It was an estimate based on the known fact that the representation of gay men in pro-sports is lower than their representation in the wider population.

 

Various methodologies put the latter figure between 1.0 - 6.0%. One of the latest estimates based on five studies puts the figure at 1.7%.  The representation in professional football will be lower than whatever this number is.

 

Before you call this "bogus" why don't you add some reasoning to the discussion?

 

If they haven't come out, how can you possibly make that assumption?

[Con]

1. they've not come out, so how can you assume this Premier League XI of Kenneth Williams and John Inmans exist when there is no evidence for their existence? in other professions there are a high number of gay men and they come out. no reason why a high number of gay men shouldn't come out in this profession. the reason we don't get a high number coming out is there aren't a high number to begin with.

 

2. the reason for that is football is a competitive, physical sport. gay men are by their own admission not generally keen on competitive sports. they are generally more attracted to more relationship forms of activity, and an example of the form of physical activity they generally prefer is dance. being aggressive and trying to beat an opponent is not a typical gay male trait.

 

3. the conversely high number of lesbian sports professionals suggests that lesbians, for whatever reason, have more male traits whilst gay men, for whatever reason have more female traits. there are always exceptions to the rule but we should remember exceptions aren't the rule so anyone waiting for an all star "out" gay football XI will be waiting a very long time.

[LondonLax]

1. they've not come out, so how can you assume this Premier League XI of Kenneth Williams and John Inmans exist when there is no evidence for their existence? in other professions there are a high number of gay men and they come out. no reason why a high number of gay men shouldn't come out in this profession. the reason we don't get a high number coming out is there aren't a high number to begin with.

 

2. the reason for that is football is a competitive, physical sport. gay men are by their own admission not generally keen on competitive sports. they are generally more attracted to more relationship forms of activity, and an example of the form of physical activity they generally prefer is dance. being aggressive and trying to beat an opponent is not a typical gay male trait.

 

3. the conversely high number of lesbian sports professionals suggests that lesbians, for whatever reason, have more male traits whilst gay men, for whatever reason have more female traits. there are always exceptions to the rule but we should remember exceptions aren't the rule so anyone waiting for an all star "out" gay football XI will be waiting a very long time.

 

I think you need to have a rethink about your assumptions. They are leading you astray. 

[mjmooney]

 in other professions there are a high number of gay men and they come out. no reason why a high number of gay men shouldn't come out in this profession. the reason we don't get a high number coming out is there aren't a high number to begin with.

 

No reason? Are you kidding me? 

[Con]

Which ones? I'd be more than happy for dozens of gay Premier League footballers to come out. Just don't think that is the way the world works. Unless you have any good reason to suggest different.

[dont_do_it_doug.]

No worries Snowy.

To be honest Con, your posts are getting a little bit absurd. Talking about "gay traits" and what not. It might be wise to go away and think about what you're saying before you go much further.

[Dr_Pangloss]

To be honest Con, all of your posts in this thread are a load of laughable bollocks.

[blandy]

 

50 gay footballers in the Premier League ? Do you mean all divisions + conference

 

No, in the Premier League.

 

Ah. Actually, I made an error.

 

I mean 25.

 

It could be between 25-50. (0.5 - 1.0% of 500 footballers)  .....

 

....I don't think that's a good way to engage someone in debate. I've put forward a reasoned argument. You are asserting its wrong without engaging with it at all, then flame me.

For someone who likes stats and heat maps and that, your maths is a bit lacking. 1% = 1 in a hundred, so 1 percent of 500 = 5, not 50. half a percent = 2.5 footballers (presumably 2 gay ones, and one that's curious, looking at it mathematically). So your deductions from already groundless assumptions are completely wrong, even by your own doing.

[Con]

 

For someone who likes stats and heat maps and that, your maths is a bit lacking. 1% = 1 in a hundred, so 1 percent of 500 = 5, not 50. half a percent = 2.5 footballers (presumably 2 gay ones, and one that's curious, looking at it mathematically). So your deductions from already groundless assumptions are completely wrong, even by your own doing.

 

 

We've already established it was late and I was tired and later corrected the error.

No worries Snowy.

To be honest Con, your posts are getting a little bit absurd. Talking about "gay traits" and what not. It might be wise to go away and think about what you're saying before you go much further.

 

There is no way to tell the difference, on average, between a gay man than a heterosexual? Ludicrous! 

[Jimzk5]

The thread title reads like something a 13 year old would write on the back of a builders van.

[dont_do_it_doug.]

For someone who likes stats and heat maps and that, your maths is a bit lacking. 1% = 1 in a hundred, so 1 percent of 500 = 5, not 50. half a percent = 2.5 footballers (presumably 2 gay ones, and one that's curious, looking at it mathematically). So your deductions from already groundless assumptions are completely wrong, even by your own doing.

We've already established it was late and I was tired and later corrected the error.

No worries Snowy.

To be honest Con, your posts are getting a little bit absurd. Talking about "gay traits" and what not. It might be wise to go away and think about what you're saying before you go much further.

There is no way to tell the difference, on average, between a gay man than a heterosexual? Ludicrous!

On average, no.

Mental isn't it. Maybe we should have them wear badges or something.

[Con]

 

 

 

There is no way to tell the difference, on average, between a gay man than a heterosexual? Ludicrous!

On average, no.

Mental isn't it. Maybe we should have them wear badges or something.

 

 

I smell the fulfilment of Godwin's law Real Soon Now.

 

Some questions for you, if on average gay men are indistinguishable in behaviour from heterosexual men -

 

Why did the 80s aids epidemic hit the gay male population disproportionately hard?

 

Why do they have great dress sense?

 

How come they can all dance?

 

Why so-often the camp Dale Winton voice? 

 

 

Not saying there is a problem with these differences. But you are saying these differences don't exist and that anyone who notices them is a Nazi.

 

Actually, you didn't say that anyone who notices them is a Nazi. I'm just getting Godwin's law in first!

[Frobisher]

There is no way to tell the difference, on average, between a gay man than a heterosexual? Ludicrous!

On average, no.

Mental isn't it. Maybe we should have them wear badges or something.

 

I smell the fulfilment of Godwin's law Real Soon Now.

 

Some questions for you, if on average gay men are indistinguishable in behaviour from heterosexual men -

 

Why did the 80s aids epidemic hit the gay male population disproportionately hard?

 

Why do they have great dress sense?

 

How come they can all dance?

 

Why so-often the camp Dale Winton voice? 

 

 

Not saying there is a problem with these differences. But you are saying these differences don't exist and that anyone who notices them is a Nazi.

 

Actually, you didn't say that anyone who notices them is a Nazi. I'm just getting Godwin's law in first!

You've never met any gay men, have you?

[Con]

 

You've never met any gay men, have you?

 

 

Actually, I have, and a few of them have had that camp voice and floppy wrist and amazing popularity with women thing going on. Not all gay men are like that but it is something that I don't think has ever resulted in a surprise to learn they were actually heterosexual. 

[Frobisher]

You've never met any gay men, have you?

 

Actually, I have, and a few of them have had that camp voice and floppy wrist and amazing popularity with women thing going on. Not all gay men are like that but it is something that I don't think has ever resulted in a surprise to learn they were actually heterosexual.

I think you've been watching too many seventies sit-coms.

[snowychap]

Why did the 80s aids epidemic hit the gay male population disproportionately hard?

As I'm hoping that's a serious question then an extract from a paper in the British Medical Bulletin would suggest:

...

Receptive anal intercourse appears to be more risky than receptive vaginal intercourse with obvious implications for spread amongst men who have sex with men (MSM)...

Edited January 11, 2014 by snowychap