What is your experience of mental health?

[snowychap]

10 hours ago, Carlos_the_third said:

Chindie, I’m so sorry to hear you’re going through all of that, it sounds horrendous. I’m no expert on the matter at all, but have you tried a full elimination diet (apologies if yes, this certainly wasn’t meant to come across as me being a know it all)? The gut brain link is a crazy thing, and I’ve found that mental health issues I’ve had in the past and issues I have currently have been really helped by a change of diet (initially gluten free, and then more recently keto). Our gut isn’t really designed to deal with a lot of modern foods - some people’s adapt, whereas others don’t adapt so well.

Some diets that might be worth investigating if you haven’t already are the obvious ones like gluten and dairy free, keto, paleo, carnivore etc. Again, I’m sure you’ve considered dietary things so apologies if this is preaching to the converted, but everyone’s body works differently so it is worth trying all sorts of different diets, as some will certainly help you improve, even if just a bit. If you’re going keto, I’d recommend the keto sub reddit - very useful resource. There is also some interesting stuff on carnivore by Jordan Peterson on joe rogans podcast.

Also worth bearing in mind when implementing a new diet that it’ll take time for your gut microbiome to change, so give it at least a month to see any effects.

i really hope things start improving for you soon.

What qualifies you to give nutritional advice? You say you're no expert but go on to recommend a lot of stuff.

You talk about various dietary regimes, reference Jordan Peterson (a psychologist) and go on to talk about 'gut microbione' as though you are an expert.

[A'Villan]

1 hour ago, snowychap said:

What qualifies you to give nutritional advice? You say you're no expert but go on to recommend a lot of stuff.

You talk about various dietary regimes, reference Jordan Peterson (a psychologist) and go on to talk about 'gut microbione' as though you are an expert.

Take it easy fella. He's trying to lend a helping hand. Experts are human and fallible. They get it wrong too.

Not trying to have a dig at you here, but tell me, if @Carlos_the_third has done extensive reading, including feedback from people who testify to it, that has credibility, no?

Even if he hasn't, it's just a recommendation, people can either explore it further or not. Empirical evidence and scientific method offer only partial truths.

[snowychap]

25 minutes ago, A'Villan said:

Take it easy fella. He's trying to lend a helping hand. Experts are human and fallible. They get it wrong too.

I'm asking what his qualifications are to give nutritional advice.

At the very least, it's important to understand who it is that is giving advice and on what basis they are doing that.

Unqualified, plucked out of the air, reliant upon some other bloke on the internet 'help' may not turn out to be anything like 'help' at all.

'It's just a recommendation' sounds like a support for quacks.

[A'Villan]

1 hour ago, snowychap said:

I'm asking what his qualifications are to give nutritional advice.

At the very least, it's important to understand who it is that is giving advice and on what basis they are doing that.

Unqualified, plucked out of the air, reliant upon some other bloke on the internet 'help' may not turn out to be anything like 'help' at all.

'It's just a recommendation' sounds like a support for quacks.

Fair enough. If you say you are just asking the question, then I'll take your word for it.

You've offered some recommendations of your own, which I thought might be insightful.

That was part of the reason I thought I'd comment on how you've addressed Carlos.

I agree that you need to be careful not to waste your time. Why scrutinise his counsel when you make your own?

'Quacks' have turned out to be pioneers more often then the mainstream would care to admit.

 

[Carlos_the_third]

8 hours ago, snowychap said:

What qualifies you to give nutritional advice? You say you're no expert but go on to recommend a lot of stuff.

You talk about various dietary regimes, reference Jordan Peterson (a psychologist) and go on to talk about 'gut microbione' as though you are an expert.

I have to be honest, I am surprised at this response. At no point have I said ‘you should do diet x’.

I recommended to Chindie that he do some investigation into diet, and listed some diets that I have looked into, and that have helped various people with their mental health. I also stated that diet helped me immensely on two occasions with my mental health. Doctors often don’t talk much about diet, so I thought I might be able to add something unique to the discussion over the ‘experts’.

Chindie doesn’t have to follow my recommendations - I made it clear I’m not an expert, but I wager that I know more about the potential benefits of diet changes than most people and have picked up a decent amount of knowledge along the way having dedicated a lot of my last year researching how to improve my own mental health (largely through diet) after a breakdown last year. I thought it would be especially useful to share some of this information with someone also dealing with gut issues.

With regards anyone recommending anything being a quack, that is ridiculous - a lot of this thread, including your post, contains recommendations.

I took some time out of my own day yesterday to try and help out a guy I have never met, because I thought my experiences with poor mental health could perhaps help him point him in the right direction to help him out of a real tough situation. Honestly, I felt pretty happy that I might be able to help - I certainly wasn’t expecting to wake up this morning having to defend my post, and this has left a poor taste in my mouth to say the least. I have deliberately made this post unconfrontational, and my opinions are fully listed here, so I am not expecting a response and will not be replying to one - this thread is about helping fellow villa fans improve their own mental health, so let’s keep it that way without diving into needless arguments (which aren’t all that great for the old brain). 

[Dr_Pangloss]

10 hours ago, snowychap said:

What qualifies you to give nutritional advice? You say you're no expert but go on to recommend a lot of stuff.

You talk about various dietary regimes, reference Jordan Peterson (a psychologist) and go on to talk about 'gut microbione' as though you are an expert.

Jordan Peterson advocates a zero carb diet. Here's a study published in The Lancet, it's a very board meta-analysis and demonstrates that diets where carbohydrates are less than 40% or more than 70% of your energy confer an increased risk of mortality:

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanpub/article/PIIS2468-2667(18)30135-X/fulltext 

So yeah, I wouldn't take Jordan Peterson's advice on this, he knows nothing about biochemistry, nutrition science and the like.

 

 

 

Edited March 17, 2019 by Dr_Pangloss

[Chindie]

19 hours ago, mjmooney said:

Read a biography of Alfred the Great. 

This is not a facetious comment, but dead serious. He suffered from something very similar all his life, both physically and (as far as we can tell) mentally. 

He still managed to kick Viking ass and unify the English nation. 

Just don't eat any burnt cakes. 

Thanks.

I know the theory is he had Crohn's disease. I don't. There's apparently nothing physically wrong with me - I've had more or less every test going. Doesn't help that there's still clearly something wrong, so I'm of the mindset now that I'm literally completely mental.

It's probably something that's easier to cope with in his time. But thanks for the thoughts.

[Chindie]

18 hours ago, maqroll said:

@Chindie Don't throw in the towel. Work through these issues, you can do it. I'd ask your doctor about Neurontin, it's used for a lot of things, and I've found it to be really helpful with anxiety, sleep and nerve pain. No side effects and not addictive.

Thanks. I'll look into it.

When I last spoke to an occupational health guy they recommended perhaps looking into trycyclics, an old type of antidepressant that is used to help with IBS occasionally. Not very often prescribed these days as there's better alternatives for most things and they have significant side effects, but they are on the IBS NICE guidelines apparently. Not managed to speak to my doctor about it yet.

[Chindie]

12 hours ago, peterms said:

Have you checked out registering as disabled?  It would offer some extra protection, in some circumstances, and it makes employers more cautious.

Thanks. No I've not. I don't think I'd be considered disabled, and I shouldn't be really.

Edited March 17, 2019 by Chindie

[Chindie]

10 hours ago, snowychap said:

Shit. Break the issues down.

Address the work/HR issue by taking legal advice. Why are you not being paid despite being signed off? Can you find decent, free legal advice on your situation?

Never, absolutely ever accept the position of the HR department of the company. They're often wrong.

As far as the CBT stuff goes, I can't recommend it. It may work for you but it may not. Are there alternatives? Normal counselling or some such?

Is there no physical treatment for the issue that may enable you to get ahead of any anxiety problems?

Otherwise (and I realise it's not much help) - good luck.

Thanks.

Company policy has you on full pay for a period, half pay for a period, and then nothing. They did consider me for the income prevention scheme the business has, but I apparently don't qualify. Not that I wanted to at the time.

CBT is something I'd usually look at derisively, but I don't have a great deal of choice at the moment and I have to hope it'll help. I'm having a bit of a break before the next session as the therapist is away. Last session was on challenging thoughts. It's not been a great help so far but I have to hope it is. I'm not sure if alternatives and again, I struggle to travel. Before it got really bad I actually paid out of my own pocket to see a hypnotherapist, which didn't help.

Nothing seems to help physically. I've taken buscopan, a similar but stronger thing, I've been prescribed these weird sachet things you take before bed... On the mental side of things I was on citalopram for a bit, which lead to me having what I can only think of as a panic attack while driving twice (my body went very cold, my heart was racing, my leg and hands started shaking, and I genuinely thought I was going to be unable to drive if it didn't stop, and I was somewhere where I couldn't stop myself either), then mirtazapine, which served only to make me eat like mad and put on an insane amount of weight very fast (prior to this I lost an equally mad amount of weight as, frankly, I wasn't eating much). And now I'm on sertraline.

When this first started getting really bad I had a day where I struggled to get to work more than usual. I gave up and called my manager to say I wouldn't be in, and the moment I put the phone down I was so disappointed and angry I got back in the car and drove into work screaming at myself that if I didn't get to the office I was going to slash my wrists when I got home. I was hoarse when I got in and everyone was surprised to see me.

[mjmooney]

25 minutes ago, Chindie said:

Thanks.

I know the theory is he had Crohn's disease. I don't. There's apparently nothing physically wrong with me - I've had more or less every test going. Doesn't help that there's still clearly something wrong, so I'm of the mindset now that I'm literally completely mental.

Obviously we don't actually know what Alfred had for sure, but legend has it that all through his life he was tortured by acute anxiety about his bowels letting him down at crucial moments. Pretty problematic for a head of state. But I guess my point was 'try not to despair'. 

[Carlos_the_third]

57 minutes ago, Dr_Pangloss said:

Jordan Peterson advocates a zero carb diet. Here's a study published in The Lancet, it's a very board meta-analysis and demonstrates that diets where carbohydrates are less than 40% or more than 70% of your energy confer an increased risk of mortality:

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanpub/article/PIIS2468-2667(18)30135-X/fulltext 

So yeah, I wouldn't take Jordan Peterson's advice on this, he knows nothing about biochemistry, nutrition science and the like.

 

 

 

Yeah the Peterson recommendation was more of an interesting listen on the Joe Rogan podcast to see how diet can have such an extreme effect on people - him and his daughter have (according to them) massively alleviated depression/a load of horrendous auto immune issues with the carnivore diet (the podcast does frequently have him saying he is not an expert etc). Given the infancy of such non-mainstream diets, I was under the impression that there was not much info on the effect on long term health, but obviously that is a risk you take if following it long term. My post was generally referencing short term changes Chindie could make - I will alter the original post to clarify this in case there was any confusion!

[snowychap]

7 hours ago, A'Villan said:

You've offered some recommendations of your own

My only real recommendations were to break the issues down and to seek legal advice on a subject in which the law often plays a big part.

Otherwise, I was asking a lot of questions in order to get a clearer picture of where the other poster was, i.e. were there other mental health options and other options to do with the physical ailment(s).

[Dr_Pangloss]

13 minutes ago, Carlos_the_third said:

Yeah the Peterson recommendation was more of an interesting listen on the Joe Rogan podcast to see how diet can have such an extreme effect on people - him and his daughter have (according to them) massively alleviated depression/a load of horrendous auto immune issues with the carnivore diet (the podcast does frequently have him saying he is not an expert etc). Given the infancy of such non-mainstream diets, I was under the impression that there was not much info on the effect on long term health, but obviously that is a risk you take if following it long term. My post was generally referencing short term changes Chindie could make - I will alter the original post to clarify this in case there was any confusion!

Peterson is just a blow hard at the end of the day, his knowledge is narrow and needs to stay in his lane. I don't disagree with some of things he says in his critiques of aspects of the 'social justice' movement but outside of that he talks a lot of nonsense, his diet recommendations being one of them. So what if it 'works' for him and his daughter, that's called 'fallacy of composition', the data (as I've evidenced) doesn't support his claims. Don't mean to take away from the broader intention of your post though as it wasn't wrong.

Edited March 17, 2019 by Dr_Pangloss

[Carlos_the_third]

3 minutes ago, Dr_Pangloss said:

Peterson is just a blow hard at the end of the day, his knowledge is narrow and needs to stay in his lane. I don't disagree with some of things he says in his critiques of aspects of the 'social justice' movement but outside of that he talks a lot of nonsense, his diet recommendations being one of them. So what if it 'works' for him and his daughter, that's called 'fallacy of composition', the data (as I've evidenced) doesn't support his claims. Don't mean to take away from the broader intention of your post though as it wasn't wrong.

To be honest, I have no idea on what Peterson talks about the rest of the time. From memory he doesn’t even recommend the diet in this podcast, just says how it has worked for him and his daughter. I made sure not to suggest in my post that any diet would help a given individual - if certain diets have helped certain individuals though, then they can help others, and that is what I’ve been trying to get at. It’s up to each of us to work out what works for us, and if other options are exhausted this may mean trying things we are not sure about, or even things that the data suggests doesn’t help most people, to see how our bodies respond. Data obviously has its place, but it’s so easy to get caught up in it that we forget that we are each unique, wonderful beings who are built in our own individual way, and if ‘standard’ things aren’t working for us then it may be time to go off the beaten path for a bit to see if that can improve things - if not, and there is no improvement in a month, we can always return to what we know.

[snowychap]

2 hours ago, Carlos_the_third said:

With regards anyone recommending anything being a quack, that is ridiculous

It's a good job I didn't say it, then.

[sharkyvilla]

I was going to offer some advice but I'm not sure I want to now All I'll say is that I found CBT really useful but it did seem a load of guff until a certain point where it all started to make sense and my life has improved immeasurably.  I really hope you find something that works Chindie (trying a different diet does make some sense to me ).

[Skruff]

Diet and physical health are related. But it depends on who, what and how. 

In acute suffering and problems such as mentioned here. It's the wrong end to start on. But defiently something to consider later on. But a obviously change to be consider is cutting down/out coffee as it aggregates anxiety. 

CBT is good, and it works. For many people. 

Pshycopharmancy should be considered in severe cases. For a short term, with proper guidance and a plan. So you'll actually be able to start and go thru with your treatment.

Have in mind that there might be an underlying depression. But you will go thru that with your therapist, If you haven't all ready. 

Without knowing mutch. It sounds like you've been pushing thru and living with a high degree of job related stress for a long time. For many people the mind/body eventually says stop. 

Wish you all the best Chindie. Know that you'll be better with time. Even if you're in a hard place at the moment. 

Edited March 17, 2019 by Skruff

[Jon]

5 hours ago, sharkyvilla said:

I was going to offer some advice but I'm not sure I want to now All I'll say is that I found CBT really useful but it did seem a load of guff until a certain point where it all started to make sense and my life has improved immeasurably.  I really hope you find something that works Chindie (trying a different diet does make some sense to me ).

Yep, CBT proved a real help to me too.  Like finding the missing pieces of a jigsaw. The therapist was really perceptive.  It definitely helped me, in conjunction with other things.  

[A'Villan]

12 hours ago, snowychap said:

My only real recommendations were to break the issues down and to seek legal advice on a subject in which the law often plays a big part.

Otherwise, I was asking a lot of questions in order to get a clearer picture of where the other poster was, i.e. were there other mental health options and other options to do with the physical ailment(s).

Like I said, I thought it might be insightful. Wasn't trying to be inflammatory or contentious.