The History Thread

[tonyh29]

The Japanese army were evil in WW2. Some of the stories are horrific

 

the strange thing is that in WW 1 they behaved impeccably  (Japan wanted to be seen as civilised by the western power)  too that point that a lot of German POW's stayed in Japan after the war ended

 

a lot changed with the Japanese in the following years  .....

[Designer1]

 

I heard Stalin quoted as saying that to beat Nazi Germany, "America provided the money, Britain provided the time and Russia provided the blood". Hard to argue with that.

 

But who knew that quite so many Chinese died as well? No wonder things between China and Japan are a bit frosty.

 

 

You should read up on the Rape of Nanking.  There are some documentaries on YouTube too. It's absolutely harrowing. 

 

 

 

The City of Life and Death is an excellent (and obviously quite grim) movie on Nanking.

 

Edited June 5, 2015 by Designer1

[MakemineVanilla]

 

The Japanese army were evil in WW2. Some of the stories are horrific

 

the strange thing is that in WW 1 they behaved impeccably  (Japan wanted to be seen as civilised by the western power)  too that point that a lot of German POW's stayed in Japan after the war ended

 

a lot changed with the Japanese in the following years  .....

 

 

They were British allies in WW1 but the Brits let the treaty lapse at the request of the USA.

 

So as they became more isolated and were cut off from resources they became more militaristic. 

[villa4europe]

If you're not ready for city of life and death then Christian Bale did a Hollywood effort called flowers of war which isn't in the same ballpark but still watchable

When I was in China there isn't half still a lot of resentment towards the Japanese tourists, our guides hated them and would openly take digs at their groups in front of all of us

Edited June 5, 2015 by villa4europe

[coda]

There was something in The World at War about the Japanese suppressing Buddhism pre-WWII in favour of Shinto as the former might have been too peaceful.

[mjmooney]

The Japanese army were evil in WW2. Some of the stories are horrific

True but it is still a mystery why we were quicker to forgive, or at least find excuses for the Germans, than the Japanese in the post-war period.

The propaganda was pretty fierce:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-lQ3BrzQO4

Racism, mostly. The Germans looked like us, the Japanese didn't.

But also the fact that the worst German atrocities were inflicted on Jews and Russians. For their own racist reasons they mostly 'played by the rules' against British and American troops. Whereas the allied soldiers who fell into Japanese hands and survived, came back with an endless supply of horror stories.

[The_Rev]

The German treatment of Russians in WW2 was 'justified' by the fact that they didn't sign the treaty of Versailles following the First World War wasn't it? The Germans saw it that didn't have to abide by the rules of engagement because the Russians weren't at the table twenty years previously, and that was basically due to a Marxist revolution which was (probably) sponsored by the German government in order to knock Russia out of WW1.

[MakemineVanilla]

 

 

The Japanese army were evil in WW2. Some of the stories are horrific

True but it is still a mystery why we were quicker to forgive, or at least find excuses for the Germans, than the Japanese in the post-war period.

The propaganda was pretty fierce:

Racism, mostly. The Germans looked like us, the Japanese didn't.

But also the fact that the worst German atrocities were inflicted on Jews and Russians. For their own racist reasons they mostly 'played by the rules' against British and American troops. Whereas the allied soldiers who fell into Japanese hands and survived, came back with an endless supply of horror stories.

 

 

My view entirely.

[JamieZ]

 

 

I heard Stalin quoted as saying that to beat Nazi Germany, "America provided the money, Britain provided the time and Russia provided the blood". Hard to argue with that.

 

But who knew that quite so many Chinese died as well? No wonder things between China and Japan are a bit frosty.

 

 

You should read up on the Rape of Nanking.  There are some documentaries on YouTube too. It's absolutely harrowing. 

 

 

 

The City of Life and Death is an excellent (and obviously quite grim) movie on Nanking.

 

 

And this, while entirely fictional, is one of the coolest scenes I've ever seen in a film.

[maqroll]

There was something in The World at War about the Japanese suppressing Buddhism pre-WWII in favour of Shinto as the former might have been too peaceful.

I think it was because Bhuddism was imported, Shinto homegrown.

[The_Rev]

 

 

The Japanese army were evil in WW2. Some of the stories are horrific

 

the strange thing is that in WW 1 they behaved impeccably  (Japan wanted to be seen as civilised by the western power)  too that point that a lot of German POW's stayed in Japan after the war ended

 

a lot changed with the Japanese in the following years  .....

 

 

They were British allies in WW1 but the Brits let the treaty lapse at the request of the USA.

 

So as they became more isolated and were cut off from resources they became more militaristic. 

 

 

 

Japan has always been somewhat isolated from the world, much more than the UK (which I believe is a good "island nation" comparison) ever has been.   It had a policy of Sakoku for hundreds of years and that would have still been in living and institutional memory at the turn of the 20th century.  I'm speculating here, but I wonder how big a factor that the actions of the British Empire and the rise of the USA had with their behaviour. Probably not much. 

[MakemineVanilla]

 

 

 

The Japanese army were evil in WW2. Some of the stories are horrific

 

the strange thing is that in WW 1 they behaved impeccably  (Japan wanted to be seen as civilised by the western power)  too that point that a lot of German POW's stayed in Japan after the war ended

 

a lot changed with the Japanese in the following years  .....

 

 

They were British allies in WW1 but the Brits let the treaty lapse at the request of the USA.

 

So as they became more isolated and were cut off from resources they became more militaristic. 

 

 

 

Japan has always been somewhat isolated from the world, much more than the UK (which I believe is a good "island nation" comparison) ever has been.   It had a policy of Sakoku for hundreds of years and that would have still been in living and institutional memory at the turn of the 20th century.  I'm speculating here, but I wonder how big a factor that the actions of the British Empire and the rise of the USA had with their behaviour. Probably not much. 

 

 

You would think that the choice of a country to isolate itself was entirely the business of that country alone, but apparently not.

 

When the Americans sent Matthew Perry (1853) and his gunship to force the Japanese to trade with them, literally with a gun to their heads, it was an act every bit as egregious as the British forcing the Chinese to buy their opium, or be slaughtered.

 

I am not sure you can blame other countries for following the British and American example.

[CrackpotForeigner]

There's a bloke who posts on the Grauniad site who seems very well-informed about the Opium Wars, and he offers what seems to be a nuanced take on Britain and the European powers' role in it all. He's pretty aggro, but seems to know what he's talking about:

 

http://www.theguardian.com/global/2015/jun/01/smog-noodles-china-pollution-injustices-achievements-tania-branigan#comment-53120437

 

 

Your point that the West (not just the UK) remains little engaged with Asian culture and history is well taken, but the example you've chosen isn't really the best for your case.

How many Britons know what was happening in the UK in the 1840s?

And how many Chinese even know about the Opium Wars? Almost none. They know of them because they are taught about them. But much of what they are taught is false, or at best incomplete. They don't really know about them at all.

 

One of the points he makes is that opium was just as freely sold to Europeans in Europe as to Chinese in China. In that context, it looks more like a trade war and less like a bunch of drug gangsters using violence to keep their clientele hooked.

[chrisp65]

 

wasn't really sure where to stick this

 

You might recall some time ago the Taliban in Afghanistan blowing up cultural icons / religious relics / tourist attractions (delete as suits your personal world view)?

 

Well, the Buddha is back - but as a light show! Quite a neat idea, I thought.

[tonyh29]

 

wasn't really sure where to stick this

 

You might recall some time ago the Taliban in Afghanistan blowing up cultural icons / religious relics / tourist attractions (delete as suits your personal world view)?

 

Well, the Buddha is back - but as a light show! Quite a neat idea, I thought.

 

I'm always torn on rebuilding stuff ..on one hand great you get to see it in it's original glory , on the other hand you feel kinda cheated ( the Terracotta army was all rebuilt as a  jigsaw puzzle project , it's not made clear when you go and visit it , but would you want to go and visit a pile of broken pieces )

 

my favourite rebuild though was when i was in China  , we visited and climbed a Pagoda that dated back to something like 400 BC  ... all very great and impressive 

 

And then you find out that Pagoda got destroyed by an invading army and was rebuilt , then that one caught fire so was rebuilt and so on and so on through the centuries  , up into the Cultural revolution where it was destroyed for the 27th time .. and the version that we'd just visited and been impressed by was built in 1988  .... I felt kind of cheated   .....

[chrisp65]

I think that's why the light projection works.

 

You're right, modern rebuilds are ok, but they are essentially, a modern copy. 

 

Something else, some modern 'take' on a significant place is preferable in my opinion. Also, funky light show can be tweeked for that U2 concert backdrop or corporate message at an opening ceremony or whatever.

[villa4europe]

yeah i found the chinese stuff strange, pretty much everything has had remedial works done to it, compare that to the tourist attractions of ancient rome or greece where people want to see the ruins

 

a bad comparison would be hadrians wall, go look at the footings of an ancient wall and settlement and imagine what was there, or go the great wall of china where they have rebuilt it so you can see what was there, not sure which is better, both are enjoyable for different reasons

[mjmooney]

Correct me if I'm wrong, seasoned travellers (Tony), but aren't all the 'ancient' temples in Japan rebuilds?

[dont_do_it_doug.]

The German treatment of Russians in WW2 was 'justified' by the fact that they didn't sign the treaty of Versailles following the First World War wasn't it? The Germans saw it that didn't have to abide by the rules of engagement because the Russians weren't at the table twenty years previously, and that was basically due to a Marxist revolution which was (probably) sponsored by the German government in order to knock Russia out of WW1.

I don't know about sponsored, but certainly assisted. The Germans transported Lenin from Switzerland back to Russia to solidify a revolution that was already well under way by this point. I've always been puzzled by why they thought this was a good idea, perhaps like many they were charmed by Lenin?

They were far too Westernist at the time. Russia was there for the taking. In hindsight I think the German empire would have settled for Russia and a tactical withdrawal in the west boosted by Russian troops. Does WW2 happen at all then?

I'm no military commander though, so maybe I'm badly mistaken.

[tonyh29]

Correct me if I'm wrong, seasoned travellers (Tony), but aren't all the 'ancient' temples in Japan rebuilds?

 

I know the Sensō-ji temple I saw in Tokyo was rebuilt after WWII and for that same reason I'd imagine it will probably be true of a lot of them but Kyoto for example was just outside the bombers range so didn't get hit as much ,alas some monk burnt down the golden temple there , so that was rebuilt in the late 1950's !!