The History Thread

[villa4europe]

the 2 massive ones in the centre of kyoto had tents over them in september so they were having some restoration works done to them (so was himeji castle)

 

most of them have been rebuilt after fires but not all of them recently, the huge one in nara was rebuilt 300 years ago

[mjmooney]

Correct me if I'm wrong, seasoned travellers (Tony), but aren't all the 'ancient' temples in Japan rebuilds?

I know the Sensō-ji temple I saw in Tokyo was rebuilt after WWII and for that same reason I'd imagine it will probably be true of a lot of them but Kyoto for example was just outside the bombers range so didn't get hit as much ,alas some monk burnt down the golden temple there , so that was rebuilt in the late 1950's !!

I didn't mean due to bomb damage. I could have sworn I'd read somewhere that they simply don't have the western concept of everything having to be 'original' - the design is what counts, rather than the age of the stones. So when a temple is starting to look a bit worse for wear, they knock it down and built a nice new one, identical in every respect. It may all be bollocks, of course. Edited June 12, 2015 by mjmooney

[dont_do_it_doug.]

They like to set shit on fire in Asia don't they.

Oddest stereotype ever?

[MakemineVanilla]

So it is 200 years since the battle of Waterloo next week and there is a nice debunking article in today's Independent.

 

I love a bit of debunking.

 

Link = http://tinyurl.com/pfge4os

 

 

 

Two centuries ago next week, a rag-tag European army led by an Irish general defeated the French near a village south of Brussels. Next Thursday, Friday and Saturday 5,000 people will dress up in old uniforms to stage the most ambitious ever re-enactment of “The Battle That Changed History”.

 

 

 

 

More than half of Wellington’s own force consisted of Hannoverians, Saxons, Dutch and Belgians. About a quarter of the 120,000 soldiers who defeated Napoleon at Waterloo were “British” – and maybe one in eight were English.

 

 

Of the 32 infantry regiments in Wellington’s army of about 70,000, only 18 were British, of which seven were from Scotland. Modern historians estimate that one in three of the soldiers in the “English” regiments were from Ireland.  Of the 12 cavalry brigades, seven were British and many of their regiments were German. Half the 29 batteries of guns were Hannoverian, Dutch or Belgian.

None of these numbers include the 53,000 Prussians who turned up eventually and swung the battle Wellington’s way, just when the French were pushing for a late victory.

 

But alas, not a single mention of either Richard Sharpe or Patrick Harper, who according to some sources were key to the victory.

[chrisp65]

perhaps the fact that we still 'remember' wars and battles from 200 years ago says enough about our collective national psyche that the rest of the content is incidental

[The_Rev]

 

 

wasn't really sure where to stick this

 

You might recall some time ago the Taliban in Afghanistan blowing up cultural icons / religious relics / tourist attractions (delete as suits your personal world view)?

 

Well, the Buddha is back - but as a light show! Quite a neat idea, I thought.

 

I'm always torn on rebuilding stuff ..on one hand great you get to see it in it's original glory , on the other hand you feel kinda cheated ( the Terracotta army was all rebuilt as a  jigsaw puzzle project , it's not made clear when you go and visit it , but would you want to go and visit a pile of broken pieces )

 

my favourite rebuild though was when i was in China  , we visited and climbed a Pagoda that dated back to something like 400 BC  ... all very great and impressive 

 

And then you find out that Pagoda got destroyed by an invading army and was rebuilt , then that one caught fire so was rebuilt and so on and so on through the centuries  , up into the Cultural revolution where it was destroyed for the 27th time .. and the version that we'd just visited and been impressed by was built in 1988  .... I felt kind of cheated   .....

 

 

 

You might find this interesting:  99% invisible episode 72 - "new old town"

 

 

It's about how the Polish decided to rebuild Warsaw after the Wehrmacht destroyed it in WW2.  They didn't go for a brick by brick reconstruction of what the old town looked like in 1939 but went for a fantasy version instead.  It made a lot of sense when you think about it. 

[snowychap]

On the subject of Waterloo:

Belgium trolls France with bonkers new commemorative coin

Sure, we really NEED a €2.50 coin to mark Waterloo, snickers Belgian finance minister

Belgium has taken international trolling to the next level by minting a €2.50 coin to celebrate the Battle of Waterloo.

France had objected to the plan to mint a €2 coin to mark the 200th anniversary of Napoleon's defeat and Belgium duly scrapped 180,000 coins. France said the battle “has a particular resonance in the collective consciousness that goes beyond a simple military conflict”.

But the plucky Belgies didn’t take the French manoeuvre lying down and unearthed an obscure piece of legislation which allows EU countries to unilaterally mint new coins, provided that they are in an unusual denomination.

Belgian finance minister, Johan Van Overtveldt said the decision to mint 70,000 of the new coins is not designed to annoy the French – El Reg assumes that was just a happy side effect. Another side effect may be a positive effect on Belgian coffers, as the €2.50 coin costs... €6!

The coins are only legal tender inside Belgium, but can be bought online at www.royalmint.be.

[The_Rev]

I saw that the other day and it made me chuckle and reminded me of the story that Winston Churchill had insisted that after his state funeral through the streets of London that the train to take his body back to Oxford (well, Bladon near Oxford) would depart from Waterloo station instead of Paddington just to annoy Charles de Gaulle.   

[chrisp65]

that's kinda what I'm referring to, let's prod the French over something from 1815, let's see if we can get one more rubbish documentary about 75 year old footage of Hitler

 

we absolutely mustn't forget

 

but bloody hell, obsessed with old battles or what

[mjmooney]

Old battles are cool. I like old battles. Did nobody here watch '1864', BTW?

[dont_do_it_doug.]

perhaps the fact that we still 'remember' wars and battles from 200 years ago says enough about our collective national psyche that the rest of the content is incidental

Hardly unique to The British though is it.

[AVFC_Hitz]

The Russians like a bit of battle remembrance.

The Turks, too. Blimey you'd think they'd won WW1 the way they drivel on about Çanakkale. There's at least one new feature film every anniversary.

[tonyh29]

So it is 200 years since the battle of Waterloo next week and there is a nice debunking article in today's Independent.

I love a bit of debunking.

Link = http://tinyurl.com/pfge4os

Two centuries ago next week, a rag-tag European army led by an Irish general defeated the French near a village south of Brussels. Next Thursday, Friday and Saturday 5,000 people will dress up in old uniforms to stage the most ambitious ever re-enactment of “The Battle That Changed History”.

More than half of Wellington’s own force consisted of Hannoverians, Saxons, Dutch and Belgians. About a quarter of the 120,000 soldiers who defeated Napoleon at Waterloo were “British” – and maybe one in eight were English.

Of the 32 infantry regiments in Wellington’s army of about 70,000, only 18 were British, of which seven were from Scotland. Modern historians estimate that one in three of the soldiers in the “English” regiments were from Ireland. Of the 12 cavalry brigades, seven were British and many of their regiments were German. Half the 29 batteries of guns were Hannoverian, Dutch or Belgian.

None of these numbers include the 53,000 Prussians who turned up eventually and swung the battle Wellington’s way, just when the French were pushing for a late victory.

But alas, not a single mention of either Richard Sharpe or Patrick Harper, who according to some sources were key to the victory.

I'm in Brussels for work next week but alas come home Friday night , they are doing some battle reenactment scenes that weekend which would have been good to see

I might head out to Waterloo on the Friday though and give the French my regards

I've been tasked with bring back some 2 1/2 euro coins for some mates ... Hope they are easy to find

Edited June 13, 2015 by tonyh29

[tonyh29]

I saw that the other day and it made me chuckle and reminded me of the story that Winston Churchill had insisted that after his state funeral through the streets of London that the train to take his body back to Oxford (well, Bladon near Oxford) would depart from Waterloo station instead of Paddington just to annoy Charles de Gaulle.

Killjoy alert ....

Tis a great story but alas it isn't true .. Churchill wasn't involved in any of his funeral planning ... As the body came down the Thames on a barge I'd imagine Paddington wouldn't have worked as easily and also the steam train " Winston Churchill " used to transport the body to Oxfordshire was based at Salisbury which is on the Waterloo line ( you can take the Virginia water line out of Waterloo to reading quite easily and switch there for Oxford )

Edited June 13, 2015 by tonyh29

[mjmooney]

What would we know? These are all exotic places in That London.

[dont_do_it_doug.]

The Russians like a bit of battle remembrance.

The Turks, too. Blimey you'd think they'd won WW1 the way they drivel on about Çanakkale. There's at least one new feature film every anniversary.

The same WW1 that signified the death of the Ottoman Empire? Bless them.

[mjmooney]

 

The Russians like a bit of battle remembrance.

The Turks, too. Blimey you'd think they'd won WW1 the way they drivel on about Çanakkale. There's at least one new feature film every anniversary.

The same WW1 that signified the death of the Ottoman Empire? Bless them.

 

 

Well WWII signified the death of the British Empire, but we still bang on about that. 

[tonyh29]

The Russians like a bit of battle remembrance.

The Turks, too. Blimey you'd think they'd won WW1 the way they drivel on about Çanakkale. There's at least one new feature film every anniversary.

The same WW1 that signified the death of the Ottoman Empire? Bless them.

Well WWII signified the death of the British Empire, but we still bang on about that.

They will all come to their senses and ask to rejoin someday

[MakemineVanilla]

I am enjoying being annoyed about all the BS surrounding the 800th anniversary of Magna Carta.

 

It is all such naked propaganda meant to send the proles into dreamy-eyed awe at our 'wonderful democracy' and the rest of that shit, as our rights are systematically eroded by successive governments, which have been complicit in extraordinary rendition, spy on every citizen, have secret courts, restrict trial by jury and have reduced access to Legal Aid, which has made justice the privilege of the rich.

 

But the big lie is that Magna Carta had anything to do with the peasants; it was exclusively for the benefit of the barons.

 

It certainly didn't stop Wat Tyler being murdered during negotiations about the peasants revolt in 1381, and the rest of us had to wait over four hundred years to get a vote in 1918 (women 1928), which was way behind most other countries (Switzerland 1848 Germany 1850 etc etc).

 

And it has to be pointed out that the Prime Minister has blue blood and the government is dominated my the same old ruling class.

 

Magna Carta? Magna Carta my arse!

 

As Jim Royal* would say.

 

* played by an actor stitched up by the establishment and still seeking justice

[tonyh29]

I am enjoying being annoyed about all the BS surrounding the 800th anniversary of Magna Carta.

 

It is all such naked propaganda meant to send the proles into dreamy-eyed awe at our 'wonderful democracy' and the rest of that shit, as our rights are systematically eroded by successive governments, which have been complicit in extraordinary rendition, spy on every citizen, have secret courts, restrict trial by jury and have reduced access to Legal Aid, which has made justice the privilege of the rich.

 

But the big lie is that Magna Carta had anything to do with the peasants; it was exclusively for the benefit of the barons.

 

It certainly didn't stop Wat Tyler being murdered during negotiations about the peasants revolt in 1381, and the rest of us had to wait over four hundred years to get a vote in 1918 (women 1928), which was way behind most other countries (Switzerland 1848 Germany 1850 etc etc).

 

And it has to be pointed out that the Prime Minister has blue blood and the government is dominated my the same old ruling class.

 

Magna Carta? Magna Carta my arse!

 

As Jim Royal* would say.

 

* played by an actor stitched up by the establishment and still seeking justice

slightly selective history

 

Tyler lashed out with a dagger after some insults were traded and was wounded in the process  ...probably fatally , though having his head hacked off as he lay dying probably didn't help