CrackpotForeigner Posted February 19, 2013 Share Posted February 19, 2013 I don't know how he could return to a room where his fiance is apparently sleeping to retrieve a gun after hearing a noise in the bathroom and not notice her lack of presence; surely your first reaction would be to locate/warn your fiance? A quick 'stay here/get out' or something along those lines.. Ignoring that.. surely you'd see someone else in your bed regardless as you were going to retrieve the weapon?His story is possible, but I think most people would think it very unlikely. Yep, not exactly "reasonable" doubt. And in any case at the very least he's guilty of firing off a gun in his house without checking where his girlfriend is. So if they convict him it's not as if he's entirely innocent of wrongdoing. I'd say the only real debate is over premeditation. Pushing for a Premeditated conviction is a silly and unnecessary move by the prosecution imo. He may be a nasty bad-tempered little lunatic, but nobody hatches a plot to murder their girlfriend of a few months. Do they? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CI Posted February 19, 2013 Share Posted February 19, 2013 As someone said earlier "beyond reasonable doubt" The defence will massively play on that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dont_do_it_doug. Posted February 19, 2013 Share Posted February 19, 2013 I don't know how he could return to a room where his fiance is apparently sleeping to retrieve a gun after hearing a noise in the bathroom and not notice her lack of presence; surely your first reaction would be to locate/warn your fiance? A quick 'stay here/get out' or something along those lines.. Ignoring that.. surely you'd see someone else in your bed regardless as you were going to retrieve the weapon? His story is possible, but I think most people would think it very unlikely. Yep, not exactly "reasonable" doubt. And in any case at the very least he's guilty of firing off a gun in his house without checking where his girlfriend is. So if they convict him it's not as if he's entirely innocent of wrongdoing. I'd say the only real debate is over premeditation. Pushing for a Premeditated conviction is a silly and unnecessary move by the prosecution imo. He may be a nasty bad-tempered little lunatic, but nobody hatches a plot to murder their girlfriend of a few months. Do they? You've misunderstood the term premeditated. Shooting through a closed bathroom door is premeditated because it takes some foresight. There is no set time limit on premeditation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonLax Posted February 19, 2013 Share Posted February 19, 2013 Yes, even if he only decided to kill her that night but had to go through a few steps to do it before he pulled the trigger than that counts as premeditated murder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterms Posted February 19, 2013 Share Posted February 19, 2013 I'd say the only real debate is over premeditation. Pushing for a Premeditated conviction is a silly and unnecessary move by the prosecution imo. He may be a nasty bad-tempered little lunatic, but nobody hatches a plot to murder their girlfriend of a few months. Do they? This was touched on at today's hearing. The prosecution were at pains to say that premeditated does not mean planned over a period; the period of premeditation can be very short. If someone flew into a rage, then picked up a weapon, made their way to where the victim was, and killed them, that would be premeditation as they described it, at least as far as I understand what they were saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted February 19, 2013 Share Posted February 19, 2013 As someone said earlier "beyond reasonable doubt" The defence will massively play on that Yes, how 'pesky' that is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dont_do_it_doug. Posted February 19, 2013 Share Posted February 19, 2013 Yes, even if he only decided to kill her that night but had to go through a few steps to do it before he pulled the trigger than that counts as premeditated murder. Or even a couple of minutes before as long as they can prove he was of sound mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CI Posted February 19, 2013 Share Posted February 19, 2013 This should go to court quite quickly you'd have thought ?? Not exactly a lot of evidence to gather Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrackpotForeigner Posted February 19, 2013 Share Posted February 19, 2013 [quote name="dont_do_it_doug." post="885213" Shooting through a closed bathroom door is premeditated because it takes some foresight. There is no set time limit on premeditation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterms Posted February 19, 2013 Share Posted February 19, 2013 (edited) Closed bathroom door or no, you can still lose your temper. Most people don't then fire gunshots through the door, but I don't think the door being closed is necessarily proof of premeditation. You may be right that there's no time limit on premeditation, but I'd say most people's understanding of the term is that it implies cold calculation and some form of planning over the course of more than just a couple of minutes. Edited February 19, 2013 by peterms Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSufferingVilla Posted February 19, 2013 Share Posted February 19, 2013 If a couple are living alone in a house and one of them gets up in the middle of the night to use the toilet that is directly attached to the bedroom do they generally feel the need to lock the door? I wouldn't think so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dont_do_it_doug. Posted February 19, 2013 Share Posted February 19, 2013 Shooting through a closed bathroom door is premeditated because it takes some foresight. There is no set time limit on premeditation. Closed bathroom door or no, you can still lose your temper. Most people don't then fire gunshots through the door, but I don't think the door being closed is necessarily proof of premeditation. You may be right that there's no time limit on premeditation, but I'd say most people's understanding of the term is that it implies cold calculation and some form of planning over the course of more than just a couple of minutes. But that's not the understanding of South African law, at least from what I can tell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrentVilla Posted February 19, 2013 Author Moderator Share Posted February 19, 2013 If a couple are living alone in a house and one of them gets up in the middle of the night to use the toilet that is directly attached to the bedroom do they generally feel the need to lock the door? I wouldn't think so. But intruders...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dont_do_it_doug. Posted February 19, 2013 Share Posted February 19, 2013 If a couple are living alone in a house and one of them gets up in the middle of the night to use the toilet that is directly attached to the bedroom do they generally feel the need to lock the door? I wouldn't think so. Honestly, if I was having a shit, I would. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CI Posted February 19, 2013 Share Posted February 19, 2013 She must have been leaning against the door to keep him out and he shot the door ?? I was wondering how he'd have hit her so accurately without a view Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterms Posted February 19, 2013 Share Posted February 19, 2013 She must have been leaning against the door to keep him out and he shot the door ?? I was wondering how he'd have hit her so accurately without a view Nel says the toilet was a small 1.4mx1.4m room. When those shots were fired "it must have been horrific". She couldn't get away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted February 19, 2013 Share Posted February 19, 2013 Good to see some ANC members , one of them the deputy mayor of some town no less , protesting on the streets with "Pistorius must rot in jail" placards today Nothing like waiting for a trial and a verdict ... Lets just necklace him and be done with it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CI Posted February 19, 2013 Share Posted February 19, 2013 She must have been leaning against the door to keep him out and he shot the door ?? I was wondering how he'd have hit her so accurately without a view Nel says the toilet was a small 1.4mx1.4m room. When those shots were fired "it must have been horrific". She couldn't get away. Oh ok, thought it was like an ensuite bathroom area Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterms Posted February 19, 2013 Share Posted February 19, 2013 (edited) Oh ok, thought it was like an ensuite bathroom area I don't quite understand what it is. The toilet seems to be a room within the bathroom. He's reported as having had to walk 7 metres from the bed to the toilet. It may well be a big ensuite area, bedroom opening onto a balcony, bathroom within the whole ensuite, toilet within the bathroom. Normally by now the papers have diagrams of the layout, but I've not seen any. Edited February 19, 2013 by peterms Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dont_do_it_doug. Posted February 19, 2013 Share Posted February 19, 2013 (edited) She must have been leaning against the door to keep him out and he shot the door ?? I was wondering how he'd have hit her so accurately without a view >Nel says the toilet was a small 1.4mx1.4m room. When those shots were fired "it must have been horrific". She couldn't get away. lockquote> Oh ok, thought it was like an ensuite bathroom area Here lies my entire issue with not only you but the trial by media that we're having. Guilty or not, it's a sorry state of affairs. Edited February 19, 2013 by dont_do_it_doug. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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