Deadly Doug or Randy Lerner

[paulfromsutton]

I would say around 65-70m and I am sure all of the land around Villa park that came with the purchase aswell?

Now correct me if I am wrong anyone as these figures are from brief memory.. He upgraded the training facilitys at a rough cost of 14m. Rebuilt the Holte Hotel at a rough cost of 4m. The mosiac display on the holte end another 1m, then all the other little bits and pieces like refurbishing the holte end entrance pub etc, trinity road suites, huge cinema screens outside the ground, and the other bumflufferies here and there. All in all an investment of another 25m added to his purchase price of the club. But all in all about 100m let's say he has sunk in on buying and revamping the place.

That's before a player is purchased! I am sure I have read that Randy Lerner has spent well over 200m in 7 years on players (add that to wages and I bet that figure turns to nearly 500m!)

All in all roughly 600m in 7 years!..

I don't think doug could ever match that figure in a 7 year period to be fair!

but 600m and what is there to show for it? ok a nice venue definately but only a Carling cup final appearance and currently 18th in the league and looking like getting worse unless more money is pumped in to save this huge investment.

Now I am no Alan Sugar but if I had ploughed 600m into a business I am going to make sure that if the times get tough I don't **** it all up by ignoring the problem and refusing to fix it.

If Randy was to ever think about selling up he is not going to let an investment this huge go to **** and wipe off any current valuation by dropping down a league and also missing out on a huge windfall of new money deals the following year!

If he is failing to see this than I suggest he sits up and takes notice of PL list of recruits and invests another 20/30m if it is certain to rescue us.

That is an expensive investment and from an outsiders point of view its like he purchased a car and paid shitloads on adding modifications etc. only for your friend to come round (paul faulkner) to have a spin in it but rag the shit out of it and cause you to carry out numerous expensive repairs time and time again of which the mechanics he took it too cost shitloads of money to put right but never actually did the job properly either. Now yes paul faulkner is a clearing in the woods for doing it, but Randy is more of a dick for letting him do it in the first place!

Doug Ellis was a prick and always will be in my view. But I dont think Randy has actually thought about this whole owning a Premier League club being all that is was cracked up to be either hence the new direction this club is now operating on.

.

Well I can see a good amount of back of a fag packet maths here... £63m the club was purchased for, 14m for the training ground, 5 for the Holte modifications..... 82m in total without the players and yea there may be a few million for for sodding around with other stuff call it 85.

Now lets move on to managers and players.

Firstly Randy has picked managers very badly anyone could have pointed out Houlier & Big Eck were TERRIBLE choices! How much money did they waste? How much did it cost to remove them AND their backroom staff?

When it comes to MON yea he wasted money on certain players however he cut the cash off and then gave it to the next manager in Houlier. Hmmm dumb!

The real **** up was wages and contract lengths who gives Given a 5 year deal at his age with his shoulder problems? Dumb Who signs off the contracts? Faulkner! Who employed him? Lerner!

However you come back to it lerner is the cause.

As for the fabled massive amount of money put into signing players?

84 mIllion NET spend over 7 years and only 5.9m in the last 3 years. Thats 12 million a year since Ellis hardly a bank breaker in this day and age.

Which makes a grand total of........ 179m.

Now not being funny thats how much the bigger clubs in the league are sold for. So he hasnt pissed away his investment on the club and players at all so far.

This does not however include wages or costs of sacking managers and I dont think it should either its his own damn fault!

Think of it like this buy the equivilent of Bent when we signed Heskey and we could have been in the Champions League.

I'm not a happy camper and I wont buy in to the bollocks that is the Lerner lover fest hes a saint whos had his lunch money stolen he could sell up if we dont go down and either lose nothing or very very little

[paulfromsutton]

Sell up to someone who knows how to run a sports team or at the very least stop **** around, put a whole team of industry professionals to run the club, put some cash in now to secure the league status and then create a long term vision of building from Youth and put more cash into that to bring more talented 18yr old or less players into the club

[Richard]

Sell up to someone who knows how to run a sports team or at the very least stop **** around, put a whole team of industry professionals to run the club

We have a professional manager and coaching team who are from this industry currently running the club, so we have this already

, put some cash in now to secure the league status

. The window is not yet over so this could happen

and then create a long term vision of building from

Youth and put more cash into that to bring more talented 18yr old or less players into the club

this is what is happening anyway.

[rjw63]

Lerner > Ellis.

Every time.

[Pelle]

When Ellis had been in charge for 6 years we were already in the 2nd division. Just 5 years after we'd conquered Europe. In Ellis' last window we couldn't even extend the loan of Bakke. So far this window isn't closed yet and we can still be without any signings at all, but I doubt that. But to beat Ellis there will be quite easy.

And again, in his last year he didn't even want to water the pitches.

Lerner is to blame a lot for where we are now, but he's still given more to this club than Ellis ever did. Had Ellis stayed we'd been far lower down than we are now.

And people talking about Ellis being at every home game. Well, he's retired and living in Brum. He's got free tickets too and I really, really doubt he'd go to the games if he had to pay for it. Not that Lerner has to pay for tickets.

Lerner every time, even though he's got us into a mess right now..

[AvfcRigo82]

Well I can see a good amount of back of a fag packet maths here...

lol love it.

Anyways fag packets aside I was again 'guessing' that was how much money has been invested before we add any income revenues to it i.e ticket sales, merchandise, players sold, tv money, sponsorship, advertising you get my drift. - but even these could all be wiped in half of value if the team falls out the premier league and worsen any sale plans of the club that Randy may have.

I could write a whole paged essay on the in's and net spends etc. but that was not my point. You can dress it up as rosey as you like with 'Net' figures on players but your forgetting that the 200m or so initially paid out on signings players can be made to look nice as you like but don't forget the wages of the players and there contracts as that is one thing he can't get back - unless he sells players for more than he paid for them in which is why Downing, Milner & Young all got sold to ease this blow very slightly imo.

Yes granted everything lies at Lerner's door but the others who helped him shoot himself in the foot alot quicker along the way are just as much to blame as what he is. I said this in another thread that letting a manager loose with your cheque book who had no one higher than in within the club with any football nouse to keep an eye on this sort of thing was always going to be dangerous.

I would say that had there been this kind of figure within the club MON might not have even joined us in the first place, If there was one appointed sooner than Faulkner he would have walked then too. That is just MON though and he does not like 'middle men' as it where and that is his choice.

It was always a car ready to fall off the cliff before Faulkner came along - he was just the one that pushed it over the edge but has since then made an even bigger **** up trying to recover it.

As for Randy picking poor replacement managers fine, but surely his CEO should be the one experienced in this sort of area and advising him properly?.. that's why he was drafted in was it not? Is it any wonder G.Krulak ran for it when he did and got into hiding as I bet he knew what was coming too.

But even then Randy's choice was Faulkner - someone who is clearly as much use as a chocolate teapot to this club and has not got a **** clue - Just ask G.Taylor.

I agree with what you say that we should have went out and brought Van bommel instead of sidwell, Vagnor love instead of harewood, Bent instead of Heskey etc... but the fact we didn't is because at the time there was no other senior figure at the club who could advise Randy properly. He had to take MON's word he knew what he was doing and hindsight foolishly trusted him.

I am not saying 'oh poor randy' he's had his money robbed because he is just as much to blame for being naive in the decisions he has made in the first place.

Someone rightly said the other day - Randy had all the subbuteo set with the stands and floodlights all looking nice until MON & Faulkner came along and sat on it and broke it.

.

Edited January 15, 2013 by AvfcRigo82

[paulfromsutton]

We have a professional manager and coaching team who are from this industry currently running the club, so we have this already

. The window is not yet over so this could happen

this is what is happening anyway.

I wasnt talking about the management of playing staff but the business it's self as for the future policy stuff we certainly arent doing it with the youth setup and the transfer policy is unknown to everyone. it would be nice if they said we wont buy anyone over 26 in the summer.

[jackbauer24]

I think it is a fair question. Most people on these boards are not going to remember what happened 25 years ago all that clearly, if at all.

Personally I ask my self a number of questions about MY time supporting Villa (pretty much just Premiership):

Who's the worst manager we've had? Mcleish (Lerner)

Who's the best manager we've had? Little (Ellis)

What's the worst Premier League season we've had? Last year - to be beaten this year (Lerner)

What's the best Premuer League season we've had? 96, top 4, cup and a semi (Ellis)

What's my favourite experiences? 94/96 League Cups, Top of the league til Xmas (unbeaten run) and European nights (Ellis)

What's my worst experiences? Losses to Blues and Bradford!!

On the face of it, it has to be the theoretical idea of Ellis back BUT I wouldn't say I would support that either!! We're all quick to criticise, but the game changes, no-one WANTS to do badly and no one os perfect. Ellis loves Villa, Lerner loves profit (which requires a succesful team) but neither of them are capable of achieving their dream.

We need to be sold to someone who is capable, and capable does not mean just rich - look at the likes of Everton and Arsenal who have never spent huge sums. We don't have, and never have had, the best management and we are ripe for good sensible investment. The midlands is devoid of succesful team, we have a large fan base and a world class stadium - we could be massive. As it is we're probably one of the smallest clubs in the league at the moment in regards current XI household names, salary, ground attendance precentages, etc etc.

We're almost certainly down. But the blame lies at a multitude of people's feet, Ellis and Lerner are just two.

[Kiwivillan]

Jack you left out the fact that Lerner also has owned the club at a time when it's a much more level playing field.

No wait, that was under Ellis to an INSANELY ridiculous extent!!!

[AvfcRigo82]

What's the best Premuer League season we've had? 96, top 4, cup and a semi (Ellis)

Yeah I also remember having a hard on moments after we won the cup as well..

Edited January 16, 2013 by AvfcRigo82

[Pelle]

I think it is a fair question. Most people on these boards are not going to remember what happened 25 years ago all that clearly, if at all.

Personally I ask my self a number of questions about MY time supporting Villa (pretty much just Premiership):

Who's the worst manager we've had? Mcleish (Lerner)

Who's the best manager we've had? Little (Ellis)

What's the worst Premier League season we've had? Last year - to be beaten this year (Lerner)

What's the best Premuer League season we've had? 96, top 4, cup and a semi (Ellis)

What's my favourite experiences? 94/96 League Cups, Top of the league til Xmas (unbeaten run) and European nights (Ellis)

What's my worst experiences? Losses to Blues and Bradford!!

On the face of it, it has to be the theoretical idea of Ellis back BUT I wouldn't say I would support that either!! We're all quick to criticise, but the game changes, no-one WANTS to do badly and no one os perfect. Ellis loves Villa, Lerner loves profit (which requires a succesful team) but neither of them are capable of achieving their dream.

We need to be sold to someone who is capable, and capable does not mean just rich - look at the likes of Everton and Arsenal who have never spent huge sums. We don't have, and never have had, the best management and we are ripe for good sensible investment. The midlands is devoid of succesful team, we have a large fan base and a world class stadium - we could be massive. As it is we're probably one of the smallest clubs in the league at the moment in regards current XI household names, salary, ground attendance precentages, etc etc.

We're almost certainly down. But the blame lies at a multitude of people's feet, Ellis and Lerner are just two.

Again, there was football before PL. Worst season, '86/87. Maybe topped with this one, but still the worst.

[Big_John_10]

When Doug left we were a club that didn't need much to make it a comfortable premeriship club again.

I'm not sure you could say the same about us if Lerner left now. And if we get relegated it could well be years before we become a comfortable prem team again.

I think people are failing to think about just how bad things might get under Lerner.

Edited January 16, 2013 by Big_John_10

[blandy]

I think people are failing to think about just how bad things might get under Lerner.

might get. All sorts of things might or might not happen. I suppose if you want to imagine how things might go, then you can call up any scenario you like and use it to justify an argument. Like Frank and George Doberman, the self righteous brothers. "Oi, Lerner. Noooo"

[Big_John_10]

Another great response. Nearly as good as the last time you tried to pick fault and failed.

Why would I call up any scenario i like?

The scenario i put forward was if we were relegated. I've hardly exaggerated for effect have I? I've hardly picked a scenario that looks like never happening have I?

I think only the most blind optimist would say that relegation is not a concern right now so I think your post is a bit pointless.

Unless you think the suggestion of us getting relegated is completely far fetched. And if so feel free to explain why.

Edited January 16, 2013 by Big_John_10

[mykeyb]

I cannot imagine for one second that under the chairmanship of Ellis we would have a situation where we have nearly £40 million pounds worth of inverstment not being allowed anywhere near the first team squad.

 

Warnock £8 million

Hutton     £4 million

Makoun   £5 million (a player that our manager has apparently never seen, so how he can make a judgement to the guys ability is beyond me)

Bent        £18 million just as long as we he doesnt trigger the next appearance clause otherwise he is worth £21 million.

 

The Bent situation is just so bizarre, rumours that he isnt Mr Popular with other team members a side we have bought the player but no cannot afford to play him.......Is there any logic in this at all?

 

Take out our academy players from the first team squad and then look at what Lerner has to show for his investment - not a fat lot.

[Shillzz]

Not sure on Bent, and wouldn't like to comment without knowing the actual facts, but I agree with the sentiment. You can't earmark players for the chop, excluding them from the playing staff, then expect the club to compete with a wage structure that is depleted by the very same players.

[blandy]

I think people are failing to think about just how bad things might get under Lerner....

 

...The scenario i put forward was if we were relegated

So you're saying that people who don't share your view on lerner are failing to to think or realise it's possible we might get relegated? - And that's why they don't share your opinion?

I think Kojak's job is safe.

[Denis_B]

Mykeyb he has no choice with Makoun he can't play for us as h has no visa because can't pass English language requirement

[blandy]

I cannot imagine for one second that under the chairmanship of Ellis we would have a situation where we have nearly £40 million pounds worth of inverstment not being allowed anywhere near the first team squad.

 

Warnock £8 million

Hutton     £4 million

Makoun   £5 million (a player that our manager has apparently never seen, so how he can make a judgement to the guys ability is beyond me)

Bent        £18 million just as long as we he doesnt trigger the next appearance clause otherwise he is worth £21 million.

 

The Bent situation is just so bizarre, rumours that he isnt Mr Popular with other team members a side we have bought the player but no cannot afford to play him.......Is there any logic in this at all?

 

Take out our academy players from the first team squad and then look at what Lerner has to show for his investment - not a fat lot.

Bent is not "barred from being anywhere near the first team squad"  seeing as for example, he's often (when fit) in the first team squad - a small but important point, I feel

Anyway, unwarranted sarcasm on my part, aside (sorry)  there's actually various examples of exactly the sort of thing you talk about happening when Ellis was in Charge - there was Gareth Barry for example, when JG was manager, and GB eiother wouldn't get his shorts dirty if you believe JG, or Ellis wouldn't pay an appearance related installement to Brighton (delete as apllicable) then there was Stanley Victor. Many players have gone out on loan (never to be seen again)

 And then there's the likes of who's he called, it, er that forward from Croatia who couldn't hit a barn door with a cow's arse?

[Big_John_10]

So you're saying that people who don't share your view on lerner are failing to to think or realise it's possible we might get relegated? - And that's why they don't share your opinion?I think Kojak's job is safe.

Did I say that?

You keep trying and failing quite badly. It's almost a shame to keep responding.

I didn't say that's why they don't share my opinion. I'm sure there's plenty of other reasons. For example you're don't seem to care too much if we're relegated. I'm sure that's one of many reasons you don't share my opinion.

You're also now starting to try a new argument after failing so miserably. You're sarcastic response was about the scenario of being relegated and you somehow tried to suggest that this was the same as putting any old scenario forward which again was a ridiculous response.

TBH you've said that being relegated wouldn't really bother you that much. I think that sums your biased view of Lerner up really and after that I don't think your opinion on the owner counts for much.