PaulC Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 30 minutes ago, VillaChris said: What did they appoint him to achieve though? Given his record at Dortmund it was surely just more than finishing 4th every season? To be fair how many times have they finished top 4 since they won the champions league last. 2nd was a one off. When one mans influence created a ripple effect, a bit like us when we signed Dean Saunders Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zatman Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 31 minutes ago, PaulC said: To be fair how many times have they finished top 4 since they won the champions league last. 2nd was a one off. When one mans influence created a ripple effect, a bit like us when we signed Dean Saunders they have been 7 times since they won it including a final and a semi-final Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulC Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 7 minutes ago, Zatman said: they have been 7 times since they won it including a final and a semi-final Really, ok so given the spending power of the Manchester clubs what would you and Chris say Liverpool should be achieving? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zatman Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 36 minutes ago, PaulC said: Really, ok so given the spending power of the Manchester clubs what would you and Chris say Liverpool should be achieving? spending power is irrelevant if you spend properly. No reason they cant challenge except manager didnt have a plan B and made some awful transfer decisions which have obviously backfired on him. I would say Klopp has spent more than Pocchetino has who is clearly getting more from his team Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobzy Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 Both Manchester clubs, Chelsea and Spurs are better sides than Liverpool. They're the 5th strongest side in the league IMO (probably ahead of Arsenal, close though). Them being on 13 points at this stage, having played both Manchester clubs and Arsenal, isn't a disaster. Chelsea are doing the same points wise, with more resources and as defending champions yet are somehow getting nowhere near the same stick. It's apparently just trendy to call young, foreign managers "genius" and then knock them when they don't deliver a title. It's a bit bizarre. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VillaChris Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 2 hours ago, PaulC said: To be fair how many times have they finished top 4 since they won the champions league last. 2nd was a one off. When one mans influence created a ripple effect, a bit like us when we signed Dean Saunders About 4-5 years running under Benitez.... On Suarez btw. He signed for Liverpool in March 2011. He played two and a bit seasons before 2013-14. Maybe Rodgers deserves some credit for organizing the team in a way that got the very best out of him and Sturridge and Sterling. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrentVilla Posted October 15, 2017 Moderator Share Posted October 15, 2017 1 hour ago, Zatman said: spending power is irrelevant if you spend properly. No reason they cant challenge except manager didnt have a plan B and made some awful transfer decisions which have obviously backfired on him. I would say Klopp has spent more than Pocchetino has who is clearly getting more from his team No offence but saying “spending power is irrelevant if you spend properly” is just completely and utterly unrealistic, so much so it’s a little silly. Effectively you are saying spending power is irrelevant if you don’t make any mistakes. Or at least that is how I’m reading it, if I’m wrong apologies, but I can’t see what else you could mean. Every manager makes mistakes on transfers, or more accurately makes transfers that don’t work out for any one of a multitude of reasons. No manager is immune to a transfer flop, not Fergie, Wenger, Pep, Bruce So given that unquestionable truth, spending power therefore is important, crucial even. I just don’t think Klopp can afford a massive money flop because he can’t as easily go and spend the same money again. Take Man City, they spent a lot of money (at the time) on Bravo but got it wrong so they went and spent even more 12 months later on a replacement. That is where spending power really matters, it’s the ability to allow an error or two but still have the ability to bring players in for big money. I think that is perhaps why Klopp didn’t sign an alternative CB this summer when he couldn’t get his top target from their south coast feeder club. What I find odd with Klopp is that he has only spent money on two defenders at Liverpool. Given their long standing issues in this area that pre-date his tenure I find that astonishing. It can only be that he just isn’t that interested in defence, I can’t see why else he would seemingly largely neglect this area of his team. A little like modern Day Wenger he seems to want to just buy very similar players in midfield, ignoring defensive frailties and not really bothering with a top level out and out goal scorer. It a little odd really. I agree with you re Pochettino and Spurs, he has done a wonderful job. Although not particularly good in the market, he has benefited from their youth system and has improved his players through coaching. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zatman Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 what makes him a young manager? he is 50 and has been managing 15 years or so Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VillaChris Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 2 hours ago, PaulC said: Really, ok so given the spending power of the Manchester clubs what would you and Chris say Liverpool should be achieving? Man. United have only been good this season since Fergie left. Look at Leicester title season. Liverpool finished that season 8th, 11 points off Arsenal who were second. They were 10 points off Spurs who finished second last season. Way they're going they'll be twenty points off second this season. I understand it's tough to win the league but they're miles off even being in the mix for competing for it. To me Pochettino is a better manager than Klopp even if he dosen't have the trophies to show for it. His teams have more balance and unity and Spurs have less budget than Liverpool if you want to play that game. Neither are as good as Marcelino though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulC Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 8 minutes ago, VillaChris said: About 4-5 years running under Benitez.... On Suarez btw. He signed for Liverpool in March 2011. He played two and a bit seasons before 2013-14. Maybe Rodgers deserves some credit for organizing the team in a way that got the very best out of him and Sturridge and Sterling. Didn't he have an 8 match ban the previous season and only scored 11 goals. Credit the manager but Suarez was magnificent and so was Sturridge that season they should have won the title. I think if Klopp had those riches he would have come close or even won it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulC Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 3 minutes ago, VillaChris said: Man. United have only been good this season since Fergie left. Look at Leicester title season. Liverpool finished that season 8th, 11 points off Arsenal who were second. They were 10 points off Spurs who finished second last season. Way they're going they'll be twenty points off second this season. I understand it's tough to win the league but they're miles off even being in the mix for competing for it. To me Pochettino is a better manager than Klopp even if he dosen't have the trophies to show for it. His teams have more balance and unity and Spurs have less budget than Liverpool if you want to play that game. Neither are as good as Marcelino though. Its totally amazing how he transformed them. Eat your heart out Gary Neville. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VillaChris Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 17 minutes ago, bobzy said: Both Manchester clubs, Chelsea and Spurs are better sides than Liverpool. They're the 5th strongest side in the league IMO (probably ahead of Arsenal, close though). Them being on 13 points at this stage, having played both Manchester clubs and Arsenal, isn't a disaster. Chelsea are doing the same points wise, with more resources and as defending champions yet are somehow getting nowhere near the same stick. It's apparently just trendy to call young, foreign managers "genius" and then knock them when they don't deliver a title. It's a bit bizarre. Because young, trendy british manager "genius" Brendan Rodgers just fail to deliver a title and 18 months later got sacked. Maybe Klopp works under different criteria because he has personality and can connect with the Kop more but I just don't see how people can say his tenure is a success if he just finishes 4th every year. I look at the impact Conte made at Chelsea last season and though that was the sort of impact Klopp would be making. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VillaChris Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 Just now, PaulC said: Its totally amazing how he transformed them. Eat your heart out Gary Neville. Been very impressed watching them tonight against Betis. Full of pace and power and much better at the back. Can certainly finish top 4 this season as Sevilla just aren't as good this year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobzy Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 9 minutes ago, VillaChris said: Because young, trendy british manager "genius" Brendan Rodgers just fail to deliver a title and 18 months later got sacked. Maybe Klopp works under different criteria because he has personality and can connect with the Kop more but I just don't see how people can say his tenure is a success if he just finishes 4th every year. I look at the impact Conte made at Chelsea last season and though that was the sort of impact Klopp would be making. Liverpool finishing 4th each season would be a good result for them. Not outstanding, but good. As I mentioned, there are 4 teams better than them in the league. He's got Liverpool to a domestic and European cup final and back into the Champions League in 2 years. That's absolutely fine, and is basically the level they "should be" at. It would be silly to sack him IMO, but we do live in a bizarro "instantaneous success or you're shit" football world. It's also silly that we laud him as a "genius" as if he doesn't get critised or something. He does. A lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrentVilla Posted October 15, 2017 Moderator Share Posted October 15, 2017 Just now, bobzy said: Liverpool finishing 4th each season would be a good result for them. Not outstanding, but good. As I mentioned, there are 4 teams better than them in the league. He's got Liverpool to a domestic and European cup final and back into the Champions League in 2 years. That's absolutely fine, and is basically the level they "should be" at. It would be silly to sack him IMO, but we do live in a bizarro "instantaneous success or you're shit" football world. It's also silly that we laud him as a "genius" as if he doesn't get critised or something. He does. A lot. Agreed with you right until the last, I think he leads a bit of a charmed life in that regard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulC Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 top 4 finish champions league last 16 that for me would be ok for Liverpool Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zatman Posted October 15, 2017 Share Posted October 15, 2017 big problem is a lot of his transfers are bombs except Salah and Mane Ox - crap Karius - crap Klavan - crap Solanke - potentially decent but doesnt start him when cant score Robertson - good player but plays Moreno ahead of him. the 3rd best left back at club Matip - not that good but could be his defensive partners Wijnaldum - a meh player also fact Sakho was great at end of last season for Palace and showed no interest in bringing him back 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulC Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 11 hours ago, Zatman said: big problem is a lot of his transfers are bombs except Salah and Mane Ox - crap Karius - crap Klavan - crap Solanke - potentially decent but doesnt start him when cant score Robertson - good player but plays Moreno ahead of him. the 3rd best left back at club Matip - not that good but could be his defensive partners Wijnaldum - a meh player also fact Sakho was great at end of last season for Palace and showed no interest in bringing him back Yes very good point Zatman. They have bought Keita but not until, next season who will be a great signing. But Robertson not playing baffles me. The Ox signing baffles me. Its only Salah who I rate out of this summer signings and he is not clinical enough. But I think the potential is there for him to be a top top player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villa89 Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 22 hours ago, Zatman said: Sakho was great at end of last season for Palace and showed no interest in bringing him back They had a falling out which is the reason he was sent on loan to palace in the first place. Klopp should have swallowed his pride and sorted it out though, Liverpool really needed him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VillaChris Posted October 16, 2017 Share Posted October 16, 2017 Most bizarre thing there was Palace not signing him in July. De Boer would probably still in a job if he'd had him from the opening day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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