DeepDish Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 If this were to happen in the UK he'd probably be given 2 weeks community service Anonimity a nice string of benefits and a mansion to live inBullshit. I couldn't find the words, and you went and did it in one. That comment has genuinely made me angry. Anywho... As per comment on these things - If you will have such a gun culture, this kind of thing will happen. I await the comments that 'if someone in the theatre had been carrying they'd have put this guy down and saved lives, and thats why we need guns and concealed carry permits'. A great shame. People out to enjoy themselves, and find only terror. First: I support strict gun laws. BUT these kind of rampages (as I listed earlier in this thread, with examples from Finland, Norway, Australia, Scotland, Germany and US) can not be seen as dependent on loose gun laws. I live in Norway, a country where gun laws are very strict. Even the police are not allowed to have guns available (they must ask for premission to bring out the guns when something extraordinary happens). We have 5 million people in our country, and every year the number of murders are 30-35. But exactly one year ago, we had the Utoya killings. Our gun laws did not stop Breivik. And how could they? He planned his actions for years, and did all the right things to obtain the guns (started going to a pistol club a couple of years before he made the murders so he legally could obtain a gun). Several of these killing rampages seems to be planned over time, and then gun control rarely helps, as they will get the guns they need no matter what. The common thing in these settings are a young single man that has built up some extreme rage over time, and they have lost face, had bad luck with girls, lost their jobs, dropped out of school, been outsiders etc. I think these are not the cases that will be affected by gun laws. What stricter gun laws will have an effect on is those impulsive rage murders there are a lot of in the US. Example when someone is thrown out of a disco and they get their gun and kill the doorman. Or someone just been rejected and they have the gun available. Or even road rage with a gun available. Etc etc etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CI Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 “I have only five words for you: From my cold, dead hands.” Charlton Heston (1923-2008) U.S. actor and gun rights activist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Rev Posted July 20, 2012 Author Share Posted July 20, 2012 The firearm murder rate per capita is very very high in the USA though. Its twenty times higher than it is here in the UK. Our rate is extremely low though, so perhaps our expectations are somewhat unrealistic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted July 20, 2012 VT Supporter Share Posted July 20, 2012 I'm not saying that by having stricter gun laws you will eradicate these incidents. The gun exists - it's a tool that serves a purpose, if someone is driven enough to acquire one and chooses to commit a massacre, they will, regardless of whether the country is a gun free utopia or dripping in arms like the US. What I am saying, is that perhaps the US may not have had so many had gun laws been put in place a long time ago. It won't have stopped these things happening. But it may have made them less common. It's hard to argue otherwise - the countries that have stricter gun laws are not getting yearly reports of some young man gunning down people. The US is getting them at a fairly constant rate. If a person considers doing this, but finds it harder to get hold of the weapons to do it... perhaps some will be prevented from doing it. Many wouldn't - they are driven to it and would find the manner to get hold of such weapons - but some might. Even with gun laws put in place tomorrow the US would still suffer more of these things simply because it is a nation with a gun culture and one dripping in firearms. But perhaps it might put the stop to 1 of these incidents. It'd be worth it. And as you say it would also put a dampner on impulsive gun violence - if theres not a gun in the drawer to reach for when you argue with your wife, it's harder to shoot her. I don't think you can simply say 'Gun laws wouldn't make a difference'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coda Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 I have little knowledge of US gun laws. Do they differ state to state? If you have a permit can you carry a gun when, for example, going to the local mall? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CI Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 Can't you buy guns and bulletts in Walmart in certain states ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Rev Posted July 20, 2012 Author Share Posted July 20, 2012 It's a state by state thing. In some you can openly carry a gun wherever you want, in others you can carry but it has to be concealed, in others I think further restrictions apply. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted July 20, 2012 VT Supporter Share Posted July 20, 2012 They differ state to state, some are harsher than others. There are states, IIRC, that allow a permit for a registered and licensed person to carry a concealed weapon, and there is a clamour from some quarters for more of such legislation in other states. The idea being that a person carrying is able to react to these sort of incidents, and more over the idea is that you should assume everyone is carrying a handgun and thus not start anything. The problem is that assumes people doing these sort of things are thinking logically (which clearly they are not), and secondly, that the addition of more people with death dealing equipment in potentially stressful scenarios makes things better. I'd argue otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Rev Posted July 20, 2012 Author Share Posted July 20, 2012 You can openly carry a gun without a permit in Colorado, though there are restrictions on open carry within the city limits of Denver as far as I am aware. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lapal_fan Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 It's a problem in the U.S I watched Columnbine the other day and the Stats are something as follows; USA shootings that killed >20,000 Canada <300 UK <30 etc etc. Canada have similar gun laws yet they aren't killing themselves with them. Yes there are less people in Canada but the releative numbers are still much lower. There is something wrong with the attitudes of the people in the U.S. towards guns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dont_do_it_doug. Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 His flat is booby trapped, reports say Must. Resist. Gooneys. Reference.... Terrible thing this. An awful lot of finger pointing and nose in the air responses in this thread too. I know its a sad thing and extremely emotive, but this is not the time for judgement. A nation mourns once again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDon Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 It amazes me how many people think more concealed carriers could have stopped this. Panic sets in, one guy gets up and shoots the shooter, what's to stop someone then thinking he was the shooter, and shooting him? You could end up with a load of "innocent" people shooting each other in blind panic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CI Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 Canada guns have to be locked up at home You cannot wonder around with a gun there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted July 20, 2012 VT Supporter Share Posted July 20, 2012 It amazes me how many people think more concealed carriers could have stopped this. Panic sets in, one guy gets up and shoots the shooter, what's to stop someone then thinking he was the shooter, and shooting him? You could end up with a load of "innocent" people shooting each other in blind panic. Thats my response to the suggestion usually. Imagine there was someone prepared to act with a concealed weapon in this situation. It's in a cinema, it's dark, it's full of panicking people, theres gas in the air. How is adding another gun to such an incident doing anything but cause more harm? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coda Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 It's a different world. There seem to be a lot of stabbings (particularly on youths) in this country. If these dickheads swapped 'shanks' for guns our figures may mirror the US's. Haven't seen Columbine for years but I think Michael Moore may have been laying some of the blame for US gun problems with the media. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
briggaman Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 When I was visiting the States recently it struck me just how open they are at times in the States. Some of the things on TV in the daytime were unreal and surely influence people. I hate to blame TV and such as I often think it's used as a scapegoat. Yet I really do think that it has a big influence in the States and quite often for the wrong reasons. Many of the issues also stem from the fact that they make guns legal in the first place too. It's just asking for trouble... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted July 20, 2012 VT Supporter Share Posted July 20, 2012 One of the worst things they do is publicise these things like they do. When these things happen the news goes mad with glee, they sensationalise it in the extreme. They will advertise the culprit, get his photo out there, his name, turn it into a story about a gunman. It serves to encourage it. The only people that should know that mans name are the investigators. It shouldn't be publicised. His picture shouldn't be revealed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CI Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 Stories like this are best buried Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtsimonw Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 I stayed at my uncles place last year over Easter. His sons, teachers son was there and was from Arizona - showing me pics of all the guns he legally owns. It's really **** stupid. I don't agree with police having guns, but any random person? Great idea whoever decided that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maqroll Posted July 20, 2012 Share Posted July 20, 2012 Firearms were what fended off European nations who wanted to control us, and firearms are what cleared the midwest, the plains, and finally the west of the Indians. Our country was founded on the application of gun violence. It was intrinsic to establishing the republic, it was what defeated the South in the civil war, and so the right to bear arms is revered and well protected. I believe in the right to bear arms, but with severe restrictions. No high capacity firearms, no assault rifles, no hollow point bullets, etc. I think the criteria used to assess someone seeking a permit needs to be made much more stringent. Psychological exams and better background checks. Yearly permit renewal, with another round of psych testing. Also a longer waiting period before being able to purchase a weapon, a massive tax on ownership, etc. But even these sensible changes will not happen in every state, especially those states with a strong gun culture. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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