All-Purpose Religion Thread

[A'Villan]

On 15/07/2018 at 20:28, mjmooney said:

There were many millenial prophets around that time. Jesus was one of them, but the Jesus stories are probably conflations of several others, later attributed to one person. The fact that some people believed in miraculous/supernatural events is irrelevant. No conclusions can be drawn from folk tales. 

All religions tend to incorporate elements of earlier ones from the same area. 

The former, absolutely. 

I've enjoyed reading your posts.

I'm open to that possibility. I just find it interesting that there is reference to an individual of significance from multiple sources. Conclusions can be drawn, although empirical evidence can't, so I get what you're saying. It's not irrelevant entirely, Quantum Mechanics was being discussed on another page, the movie 'What The Bleep Do We Know' has some interesting theories on beliefs from memory.

Maybe they are all trying to relay some fundamental truth using symbolism.

8 minutes ago, mjmooney said:

And? Why leap from that to the whole God/Jesus thing? Non sequitur. 

As for your scientistists' quotes, I say to them: show me the evidence. 

The King Arthur comparison is a really good one, by the way - a classic example of how a tiny bit of barely documented oral history can be misinterpreted and spun into a huge legend. 

There's a correlation there for me. For a number of reasons. I suppose there's so much that we're yet to explore and understand. Is it not incorrect to suggest that we have empirical evidence that refutes the existence of a soul, afterlife or God. We simply don't know the answer to these questions from a scientific POV. I can't think of how to articulate my beliefs at this moment beyond that. As for Jesus I have an interest in exploring religion due to my belief about the world, I am not a Christian or subscriber to any particular religion.

You seem to be aware of the evidence, I understand you mean something substantial enough to prove it beyond doubt.

True, though the difference being that accounts of Jesus were written at the time he was supposedly alive, as opposed to hundreds of years later. But I would agree that the whole bible narrative if taken literally (and if it's even been translated as originally intended) seems to consist of misconstrued information.

[chrisp65]

Just on a tiny pedantic point of order.

The Bible can't be taken literally as it contains contradictory versions of the same story in some places.

It's more of a guide. Like the Pirate's Code.

It's tailored to it's audience of the time to some extent. With some timeless universal truth thrown in. It was pointless having a commandment 'put down thy phone whilst talking to a shop assistant' as many shops were yet to establish themselves in Judea. Couldn't exactly say, 'write this down, it'll make sense later'.

[A'Villan]

37 minutes ago, bickster said:

No

Historians only start mentioning Jesus many decades after he supposedly died. See what I did there?

Great analogy between King Arthur and Jesus though, pretty much the same thing. Fiction with no contemporaneous evidence, both use magic too!

It's an irrefutable point.

Truth is stranger than fiction. FWIW I struggle to believe a lot of what I come across regarding Jesus and Muhammad, but I want to understand it, and am open to the idea that the message has been misconstrued somewhere along the line.

 

[bickster]

1 hour ago, chrisp65 said:

Just on a tiny pedantic point of order.

The Bible can't be taken literally as it contains contradictory versions of the same story in some places.

It's more of a guide. Like the Pirate's Code.

It's tailored to it's audience of the time to some extent. With some timeless universal truth thrown in. It was pointless having a commandment 'put down thy phone whilst talking to a shop assistant' as many shops were yet to establish themselves in Judea. Couldn't exactly say, 'write this down, it'll make sense later'.

God is however omnipresent and could easily have predicted all this and what lies ahead in the future. Bloody wish he'd tell us what's going to happen with Brexit and whether Trump will be assassinated or impeached, I could do with putting some bets on and I've been a good boy recently (apart from calling someone a f***ing half-wit on Facebook last night)

Surely if God existed and was reasonable the bookies and the Stock Market traders would be out of business overnight. He doesn't even like money lenders either!

[choffer]

43 minutes ago, bickster said:

Bloody wish he'd tell us what's going to happen with Brexit

It’s all there. Have a look at Revelation. 

[A'Villan]

Dr. Gary Schwartz, Professor of Psychology, Medicine, Neurology, Psychiatry and Surgeory at the University of Arizona.

 

[Brumerican]

 Why did you neglect Dr Gary's main title. Parapsychologist.

Most of his work is in the "fields" of telepathy, telekinesis , mediums and all the other kind of  stuff Derren Brown could teach you more about in 5 minutes.

If he could prove a single one of his claims then he'd probably be the most famous scientist who ever lived.

There's nothing particularly mystical about consciousness.

 

Edited July 19, 2018 by Brumerican

[Brumerican]

16 hours ago, A'Villan said:

Do you believe King Arthur existed? Both Roman and Jewish historians mention Jesus within decades of his supposed lifetime. Arthur on the other hand is apparently not even mentioned by major historical accounts of his time, he is first referred to 300 or 400 years later.

"Jesus' death as a consequence of crucifixion is indisputable" - Gerd Ludemann, The Resurrection of Christ: A Historical Inquiry, 2004, p50.

"Frankly I know of no ancient historian or biblical historian who would have a twinge of doubt about the existence of a Jesus Christ" - Professor of Classical History and Archaeology Graeme Clarke, Brisbane Times, 2008.

"There is no scholar in any college or university in the Western world who teaches the classics, ancient history, new testament, early Christianity, any related field who doubts that Jesus existed" - Professor of Religious Studies Bart Ehrman, Freedom From Religion Foundation Lecture, 2014.

"One of the most certain facts of history is that Jesus was crucified on orders of the Roman prefect of Judea, Pontius Pilate." - Bart Ehrman, The Historical Jesus: Lecture Transcript and Course Guidebook, 2000, p162.

I am assuming you are referring to Horus when you say the similarities are pretty blatant?

Honest scientists will tell you that consciousness is one of the greatest mysteries in science, we don't really know exactly how it works, the  brain's involved in it in some way but we're not sure how. Nothing in neuroscience rules out the possibility that the analogy of the t.v signal to the t.v, is equally as likely as the computer stopping when the power gets cut off.

The only thing those quotes say is there was a person called Yeshua and he was crucified  .I'm sure a guy called Yeshua was crucified on a weekly basis.  The Romans were real life Ramsay Boltons.

I find it strange that you've chosen to print quotes from authors who cite their academical research as playing a huge part in their own atheism. It convinced themselves but not you it seems. 

If you are willing to accept their word as authority then why not their conclusion ? 

[A'Villan]

15 minutes ago, Brumerican said:

The only thing those quotes say is there was a person called Yeshua and he was crucified  .I'm sure a guy called Yeshua was crucified on a weekly basis.  The Romans were real life Ramsay Boltons.

I find it strange that you've chosen to print quotes from authors who cite their academical research as playing a huge part in their own atheism. It convinced themselves but not you it seems. 

If you are willing to accept their word as authority then why not their conclusion ? 

Perhaps crucifixion was not all that uncommon. Why was he such a significant feature of the stories that have ensued? Was he a miracle worker or simply a man of altruistic and benevolent principles who had the leadership qualities to inspire others, in a time, where as you say, Roman brutality oversaw most of Europe, parts of Africa and the Middle East?

There is account from a Roman Governor from Asia Minor (not far from Nazareth) who writes that Christians worshiped Jesus as a God and were bound by a set of moral beliefs.

People worship LeBron James as a God like figure, ironically he is worshiped more for his ability to put a leather ball in a metal ring than for his charity and goodwill.

And that's what sparks my interest in Jesus, we are still talking about him today. Whereas there will be multiple LBJ's that come and go in the next 100 years.

"If you are certain, you're certainly wrong, because nothing deserves certainty."

Convinced them of what exactly? That Jesus was just a historical figure and not in fact this supernatural being? That the patriarchal man in the sky does not really exist? I am more than open to this.

I find the Muslim belief that Jesus was a prophet and not the son of God to be easier to wrap my head around than the Christian. Both confuse me as to how a virgin birth came to be, among other aspects of it all. So let's be clear if it wasn't already, my belief in God does not have its roots in Christianity, Islam, Buddhism or any organised religion.

For the same reason I don't accept materialist scientists viewpoint on consciousness as final, it may reveal some truths but is far from all encompassing.

[A'Villan]

2 hours ago, Brumerican said:

 Why did you neglect Dr Gary's main title. Parapsychologist.

Most of his work is in the "fields" of telepathy, telekinesis , mediums and all the other kind of  stuff Derren Brown could teach you more about in 5 minutes.

If he could prove a single one of his claims then he'd probably be the most famous scientist who ever lived.

There's nothing particularly mystical about consciousness.

 

I'll check this out today.

I neglected the title as I was ignorant to it.

Does not deter me from his viewpoint in any way, perhaps this video that you've posted will.

[Brumerican]

2 minutes ago, A'Villan said:

I'll check this out today.

I neglected the title as I was ignorant to it.

Does not deter me from his viewpoint in any way, perhaps this video that you've posted will.

It's probably the thing he's most famous for. 

It's like labelling Fred West as a "Gardner, DIY'er , landscaper, groundworker and nothing else honest guv."

Like I said . If he could prove it he'd be the most famous scientist ever.

 

[Brumerican]

18 minutes ago, A'Villan said:

 

For the same reason I don't accept materialist scientists viewpoint on consciousness as final, it may reveal some truths but is far from all encompassing.

Consciousness is Neuroscience. 

Materialist scientists are probably my all time favourite kind of scientist.

[mjmooney]

Crucifixion was bog standard for the Romans. When they put down the Spartacus revolt, they crucified all the prisoners, one every mile, on the roads into Rome. 

[VILLAMARV]

[Brumerican]

Cheers for nicely timed cash injection .

Amen.

[chrisp65]

[mjmooney]

16 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

Nor the Leonard Cohen song. 

[bickster]

11 hours ago, chrisp65 said:

Catholic child abusers

[AVFC_Hitz]

56 minutes ago, bickster said:

Catholic child abusers

(Not the band)

[bickster]

6 minutes ago, AVFC_Hitz said:

(Not the band)

Knew the original Bassplayer in Uni

(Definitely the band)