The, he's finally GONE! Tell us your thoughts Thread

[Woodytom]

I think its ok to look at negatives in a win. Just like you look at positives in a loss. Sometimes looking at the negatives can help improve further.

What I dont understand is when people make up negatives like 'It was wrong to take Nzogbia off'. How on earth can that be true? When Nzogbia went off it was 0-0. We won the game 1-0. While Im not suggesting we won the game as a direct result of Nzog being off, something about that substitution was right and I think the people are wrong to make up a negative from it.

It was wrong to take N'Zogbia of. It should've been Albrighton coming off.

The substitution worked Mantis, why would it need to be anything different?

[TrentVilla]

I think its ok to look at negatives in a win. Just like you look at positives in a loss. Sometimes looking at the negatives can help improve further.

Agreed.

What I dont understand is when people make up negatives like 'It was wrong to take Nzogbia off'. How on earth can that be true? When Nzogbia went off it was 0-0. We won the game 1-0. While Im not suggesting we won the game as a direct result of Nzog being off, something about that substitution was right and I think the people are wrong to make up a negative from it.

Just because something has the desire out come doesn't make it the right decision.

In this example, there were two decisions not one. One decision was to take of N'Zogbia and the other to bring Weimann on.

I agree to say either was "wrong" is entirely subjective, you can say you don't agree with it but I'm not sure you can say it was wrong.

Bringing Weimann on is seen as being right by people because he scored, it perhaps wouldn't have been had he missed that chance.

As for the decision to take N'Zogbia off I think many people considered this to be "wrong" in their opinions because they thought we should keep an attack minded player on the pitch.

They thought that a man who had been involved in all our recent goals should stay on the pitch when trying to win a game rather than some of our more defensively minded players such as Petrov.

I think the issue is that McLeish is viewed (rightly in my view) as being a predominately defensive manager, a manager who would rather not take a gamble to try and win if it means risking defeat. Taking off N'Zogbia played to that impression of him even if he was bringing a striker on.

That is why a lot of people viewed it as wrong in my opinion and I would probably agree with them even if I agree with you that to say it is wrong is subjective.

But by the same token, if he can't be "wrong" over N'Zogbia he can't be right for bringing on Weimann.

[CrackpotForeigner]

It just seems to me that some fans don't want to read negative things, they want a positive world in which nobody talks about the negatives. Its unrealistic, idealistic and never going to happen on a football message board it didn't when things were going well.

So if people don't want to read negative things they are free not read them.

There are Negative Things and then there is negative, venomous, counterproductive bullshit based on nothing but preconceived ideas.

Anyway, by the time you've read something and found that it's not about fluffy little kittens, it's too late. Ha! didn't think about THAT, did you?

[MikeMcKenna]

Lets not let facts or stats get in the way of a bit of manager bashing eh?

Like for Like, he's doing better than Messiah Martin at this stage of season 1

It's not relevant though is it?

Yes, its a benchmark

It shows he's doing much better than some think under far more challenging conditions

Come the end of the season I wonder if you will claim the same?

[macandally]

What kind of prick would act that smug against fans who already hate him enough after two poor draws against two poor teams and being 2 minutes away from breaking a shocking club record.

The kind of prick who has had thousands of people telling him he doesn't know what he's doing?

...And maybe he doesn't know what he's doing. But it would be hard not to feel a BIT vindicated after the winner was set up by his three subs. Why he took off the Zog is beyond me, but a win is a ...

It's frustrating to see people declaring that they will never warm to McLeish. I say judge him on results alone. By that measure the judgement is probably this: He appears to be a bit rubbish, but considering that we are only 4 points off 8th place after selling two of our best players, he deserves at least to finish the season.

RL is NOT going to want to cough up another few million to replace McLeish.

So Villa fans have two choices, as far as I can see:

ACCEPT it and give McLeish the support he needs as Villa manager until results improve or he gets replaced by RL.

or

Don't accept it, and find another team to support.

This third alternative of constant whingeing and second-guessing of every decision he makes is not going to help the situation at all.

Sorry mate, absolute bullshit. We dont have two choices at all. We can support the club without supporting the man and looking at your location, it appears you are in a position to do neither.

Fair enough, I didn't express things very well in that post.

What I was trying to say was that McLeish is here to stay, so undermining him with booing and chanting isn't going to have positive results.

Have to disagree about being able to offer support from abroad. The club are getting my money from my subscription to the (fairly crap) AVTV service. I wear the shirt and adorn my possessions with Villa badges to do what I can to raise the profile of the club. Two years ago I bought a season ticket for a fan who was on hard times. I provide support for the manager by trying to counter some of the more excessive criticism on VT (for what that's worth). So I think I can and do provide some small level of support, thanks.

Out of interest, you seem very similar to a VT member who doesn't post here any more: Is your first name Paul? And have you ditched Donya in favour of Ally? Just wondering.

I hate the back him or your not a fan element and that was what your original post amounted to. You earn everything you get in life and that includes respect. McLeish has provided nothing at all to earn that, he just expects it and has now switched from blaming his players to winding up his own fans. The man is on borrowed time.

I am glad you support the club from afar, good on you. You get the joy of wearing the C&B without suffering the dour atmosphere that is VP since AM arrived.

As for the last bit, absolutely no idea what your talking about, but presume its some intended slur, so thanks.

[Ingram85]

I will start giving McLeish credit for decisions when he proves yesterday wasn't a fluke.

Out of interest, (baring in mind you think it was a fluke) have you given credit to Andreas Weimann?

Full credit to Weimann, he showed instinct to get there first, we all know he has the talent and is a natural finisher. His goal was a welcome relief and fair play to him. It shouldnt magically be the sticking plaster that covers all the cracks and means we have to start supporting McLeish.

[Mantis]

I think its ok to look at negatives in a win. Just like you look at positives in a loss. Sometimes looking at the negatives can help improve further.

What I dont understand is when people make up negatives like 'It was wrong to take Nzogbia off'. How on earth can that be true? When Nzogbia went off it was 0-0. We won the game 1-0. While Im not suggesting we won the game as a direct result of Nzog being off, something about that substitution was right and I think the people are wrong to make up a negative from it.

It was wrong to take N'Zogbia of. It should've been Albrighton coming off.

The substitution worked Mantis, why would it need to be anything different?

All it proved was that bringing on Weimann was the right decision, which people weren't disagreeing with anyway.

[CrackpotForeigner]

I think the issue is that McLeish is viewed (rightly in my view) as being a predominately defensive manager, a manager who would rather not take a gamble to try and win if it means risking defeat.

Tbf I think having wins under your belt and a bit of team morale and momentum make a lot of difference to how you approach things.

McLeish was unlucky in a few of his early games, which put him on the back foot from the start. I think that has made a difference between going all out for three points and trying to avoid complete disaster. As we know, the result of that can often be, um, complete disaster :?

[macandally]

While he's our manager I will get behind him

Unless he starts disrespecting the club or fans

Last night he smugly suggested that his tactical nous won us the game (yeah OK?) and then proceeded to wax lyrical about Fulham. Fulham, that team who we rarely lose to, but apparently they are a really good side.

Every game he bigs up the opposition which effectively belittles AVFC. He is already taking the pee out of the fan base!

[Woodytom]

But by the same token, if he can't be "wrong" over N'Zogbia he can't be right for bringing on Weimann.

Not so sure I follow this Trent and tbh from what I take from it I disagree.

For me, there are 2 types of substitutions:

Substitutions that work

Substitutions that don't work -

Yesterdays case is simple...

It worked. We won the game. As a direct result of the NZog/Weimann substition - as Weimann scored.

And I think to put Mcliesh down for it when we won is a little unfair tbh.

[macandally]

The sun is shining

We got 3 points

Just enjoy it

You must be seeing it through your window, you appear to have been posting the same message since 9.30 this morning without break!

Sorry, still not convinced.

[Mantis]

What really put McLeish on the back foot was the shambles at Spurs, which was entirely his own doing.

[Woodytom]

I will start giving McLeish credit for decisions when he proves yesterday wasn't a fluke.

Out of interest, (baring in mind you think it was a fluke) have you given credit to Andreas Weimann?

Full credit to Weimann, he showed instinct to get there first, we all know he has the talent and is a natural finisher. His goal was a welcome relief and fair play to him. It shouldnt magically be the sticking plaster that covers all the cracks and means we have to start supporting McLeish.

I never said it did.

What Im interested to know is if Weimann had of missed would you give full blame Weimann (as your given him full credit here) or would you be focusing on Mcliesh?

I dont see why you refuse to give credit to the man who put him on?

[CI]

I'm hearing these "debates" were played out in the Holte upper yesterday and it almost came to blows

[Woodytom]

I think its ok to look at negatives in a win. Just like you look at positives in a loss. Sometimes looking at the negatives can help improve further.

What I dont understand is when people make up negatives like 'It was wrong to take Nzogbia off'. How on earth can that be true? When Nzogbia went off it was 0-0. We won the game 1-0. While Im not suggesting we won the game as a direct result of Nzog being off, something about that substitution was right and I think the people are wrong to make up a negative from it.

It was wrong to take N'Zogbia of. It should've been Albrighton coming off.

The substitution worked Mantis, why would it need to be anything different?

All it proved was that bringing on Weimann was the right decision, which people weren't disagreeing with anyway.

Ok, how are you proving that taking Nzogbia off was wrong?

[macandally]

I think its ok to look at negatives in a win. Just like you look at positives in a loss. Sometimes looking at the negatives can help improve further.

What I dont understand is when people make up negatives like 'It was wrong to take Nzogbia off'. How on earth can that be true? When Nzogbia went off it was 0-0. We won the game 1-0. While Im not suggesting we won the game as a direct result of Nzog being off, something about that substitution was right and I think the people are wrong to make up a negative from it.

It was wrong to take N'Zogbia of. It should've been Albrighton coming off.

The substitution worked Mantis, why would it need to be anything different?

By that naive assessment, if we stay up this year McLeish will have been succesful?

The trouble is, life isnt that simple and you know it. There were people out on their feet and NZogbia was providing pace and attacking intent. Petrov couldnt move from the 60th minute onwards.

But dont let reality get in they way of your argument.

[foreveryoung]

Taking Nzog off killed his confidence, he was having a good game and looked to be enjoying it.

Remember CI and co, it was Fulham, not Man united not Arsenal not Man city and certainly not Tottenham. Chill ya beans, as far as im concerned its not the start of a winning streak. McLeish is still the same man he was against Wigan and Blackburn. I'm not expecting a turn around.

[CrackpotForeigner]

I hate the back him or your not a fan element and that was what your original post amounted to. You earn everything you get in life and that includes respect. McLeish has provided nothing at all to earn that, he just expects it and has now switched from blaming his players to winding up his own fans. The man is on borrowed time.

I am glad you support the club from afar, good on you. You get the joy of wearing the C&B without suffering the dour atmosphere that is VP since AM arrived.

As for the last bit, absolutely no idea what your talking about, but presume its some intended slur, so thanks.

There was a poster called Paulanddonya a while ago, and your posts remind me of him a bit. Whether it's a slur or not depends on your view of Paulanddonya's posts.

Fwiw I wasn't saying "Back him or you're not a fan", although I can see why you'd might think I was. What I'm saying is "Go easy on him, or you're probably doing more harm than good".

[Ingram85]

I will start giving McLeish credit for decisions when he proves yesterday wasn't a fluke.

Out of interest, (baring in mind you think it was a fluke) have you given credit to Andreas Weimann?

Full credit to Weimann, he showed instinct to get there first, we all know he has the talent and is a natural finisher. His goal was a welcome relief and fair play to him. It shouldnt magically be the sticking plaster that covers all the cracks and means we have to start supporting McLeish.

I never said it did.

What Im interested to know is if Weimann had of missed would you give full blame Weimann (as your given him full credit here) or would you be focusing on Mcliesh?

I dont see why you refuse to give credit to the man who put him on?

Id lament the miss, shrug my shoulders at getting a draw and my opinion of McLeish would still be the same as it is now following the 3 points.

The other thing Im not sure about is that yes, in a black and white world, bringing on weimann worked. However, I dont think McLeish should be given credit for a substitution that given another 30 seconds or so wouldnt have worked and we wouldnt be having this discussion but thats football in a nutshell I guess.

What im trying to say I guess is that its paramount to me closing my eyes and hitting the bullseye on a darts board. I can say I did it but it was a fluke none the less.

[Mantis]

I think its ok to look at negatives in a win. Just like you look at positives in a loss. Sometimes looking at the negatives can help improve further.

What I dont understand is when people make up negatives like 'It was wrong to take Nzogbia off'. How on earth can that be true? When Nzogbia went off it was 0-0. We won the game 1-0. While Im not suggesting we won the game as a direct result of Nzog being off, something about that substitution was right and I think the people are wrong to make up a negative from it.

It was wrong to take N'Zogbia of. It should've been Albrighton coming off.

The substitution worked Mantis, why would it need to be anything different?

All it proved was that bringing on Weimann was the right decision, which people weren't disagreeing with anyway.

Ok, how are you proving that taking Nzogbia off was wrong?

N'Zogbia was one of our best players up until the substitution. He was certainly playing better than Albrighton.