jat_r Posted June 16, 2011 Share Posted June 16, 2011 If we get a shit few opening games its really going to add to the negativity here! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyalVilla Posted June 16, 2011 Share Posted June 16, 2011 Moyes avereages 9th place over 10 years at a stable club with good (though not great) resources and was very nearly relegated- fairly meh. My God, nearly relegated? How could the board even think of considering someone who almost relegated a club? That's only one part of my arguement. The point is that in making an overall comparison and taking mitigationss into account, I don't think there's much difference between Moyes and McLeish, in fact I slightly favour McLeish. If Moyes was hired, despite the very expensive compo, there's be elation on the boards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NowDoINotLikeThat Posted June 16, 2011 Share Posted June 16, 2011 Mcleish is a shocker of an appointment and the mere suggestion of Mick mcarthy shows how desperate the place has become. it was me who mentioned Mick McCarthy - just to illustrate this. Mick McCarthy as it stands is indeed a better Premiership manager than McLeish FACT. More Prem experience , took Wolves into the Prem to start with as McLeish inherited a Steve Bruce Premiership side and took them down. Mick McCarthy worked on much lower budget than McLeish at Blues . Mick McCarthy stayed up last season -2nd year in row .... as McLeish took his more resourceful side down ..again. And to be fair to Mick he least tries to get Wolves to play. Im saying this just to rempahsise what a bad appointment McLeish is - in terms of PREMIERSHIP EXPERIENCE - that the board keep mentioning. I don't think the idiots on the board quite realize stuff like this that ive mentioned above. Maybe McLeish will do great - its a massive gamble tho make no mistake Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mantis Posted June 16, 2011 Share Posted June 16, 2011 I don't think there's much difference between Moyes and McLeish, in fact I slightly favour McLeish.Good God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted June 16, 2011 Share Posted June 16, 2011 I think the exteme negativity is over the top and not fully reasoned. Which is fairly reasonable. It seems emotional as opposed to dispassionate (which you could say is childish) That sounds like a quite decent appraisal of your own 'pragmatic' post, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mantis Posted June 16, 2011 Share Posted June 16, 2011 What I find most saddening about this is that Randy and the General have completely obliterated their excellent relationship with the fans in just a few days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyalVilla Posted June 16, 2011 Share Posted June 16, 2011 I think the exteme negativity is over the top and not fully reasoned. Which is farily reasonable. It seems emotional as opposed to dispassionate (which you could say is childish) That sounds like a quite decent appraisal of your own 'pragmatic' post, I think the reasoning in my post is pretty disspasionate. What would you say isn't pragmatic? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted June 16, 2011 Share Posted June 16, 2011 I think the reasoning in my post is pretty disspaionate. What would you say isn't pragmatic? Have you read your own post? I'll quote it for you to give you the opportunity: Don't see the fuss really; reaction is pretty childish and immature. At first I was a bit dismayed, but when I calmed down and started looking at his record objectivley I decided he was preferable to, say, Moyes. He's won a shit load of silverware as a player and a manager (including a major English trophy). He did much better than Moyes in the CL with an inferior team. He did an amazing job in charge of Scotland (70% win ratio) His strength is our weakness - defence. If anyone can make the best of Clark, Lijah, Baker it's him. He can build from the back like many great managers would (Ferguson, Mourinho) His PL record has highs and lows, but there are many mitigating circumstances. Moyes avereages 9th place over 10 years at a stable club with good (though not great) resources and was very nearly relegated- fairly meh. He's very well respected in football both here and abroad. Everything I've read and seen about him indicates he's a winner, very determined and pragmatic. Randy will back him to the hilt so I think he could be a real success. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carew_villa Posted June 16, 2011 Share Posted June 16, 2011 I'm slowly coming round to the idea of McLeish, as long as he improves his style of play, and brings through more young players at Villa. If he makes a couple of good signings I think people will forget about all of this. I still think we could do better but I trust Randy knows what he is doing and I trust that he is the best manager for Aston Villa given Randy's requirements for the job. Also, I was wondering if McLeish would play better football at Villa as he has better players, and I wondered what type of football he played at Rangers. Because surely the style of play he used at Rangers would be similar at Villa. Any SPL fans know? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulieB Posted June 16, 2011 Share Posted June 16, 2011 We clearly tapped him up Randy Lerner.. tap some one up to save himself a couple of million?... hmm.. now there's an interesting notion. Randy Lerner AS attested to by numerous other CEO's and managers is totally and utterly honest and does everything by the book. Flip how many other clubs get a Chairman of another football club LIVE ON SSN.. telling the whole world we should be proud of the way Randy Lerner goes about business.... Why didn't RL just tap up Martinez then? Could have been rejected PRIVATELY and then no one would have been the wiser... no-one needed to know then did they? Instead Randy goes about everything correctly.. Suddenly only a few days later RL decides that he's going to completely change personality and do things the way most of the dodgy dealers do in football? ALL for the sake of £2M????........... No way jose! hmmmm I think I smell something cooking in the kitchen! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coda Posted June 16, 2011 Share Posted June 16, 2011 So the £2m compensation reported by Sky fecking Sports hasn't been confirmed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheDon Posted June 16, 2011 Share Posted June 16, 2011 I don't get why no announcement tonight either. If it's all done and dusted, which it must be for Lerner to fly off home, he wouldn't do that with things still to iron out, why not announce it? Even if there's still a few things to be worked out, why leave the fans in this much turmoil? Surely they'd just want to get it out the way and try to move on? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyalVilla Posted June 16, 2011 Share Posted June 16, 2011 I think the reasoning in my post is pretty disspaionate. What would you say isn't pragmatic? Have you read your own post? I'll quote it for you to give you the opportunity: Don't see the fuss really; reaction is pretty childish and immature. At first I was a bit dismayed, but when I calmed down and started looking at his record objectivley I decided he was preferable to, say, Moyes. He's won a shit load of silverware as a player and a manager (including a major English trophy). He did much better than Moyes in the CL with an inferior team. He did an amazing job in charge of Scotland (70% win ratio) His strength is our weakness - defence. If anyone can make the best of Clark, Lijah, Baker it's him. He can build from the back like many great managers would (Ferguson, Mourinho) His PL record has highs and lows, but there are many mitigating circumstances. Moyes avereages 9th place over 10 years at a stable club with good (though not great) resources and was very nearly relegated- fairly meh. He's very well respected in football both here and abroad. Everything I've read and seen about him indicates he's a winner, very determined and pragmatic. Randy will back him to the hilt so I think he could be a real success. 1. He has won a shit load of silverware, both as a player and a manager. Far more than Moyes 2. I think 'amazing' is a fair and pragmatic descrition when you analyse the context. McLeish had a 70% win ratio in the 2007 campaign. Compare that with Vogts - 2002-2004 - 25% Smith - 2004-2007 - 44% Burley - 2008-2009 - 21% 3. Bringing through young defenders. A reasonable assertion considering the job he's done with Dann and Johnson. He was also a top class defender in his own right and has had good defensive records at his previous clubs. 4. Everything I've read and seen about him indicates he's a winner What can I say. He's had some downs, but the guy's trophy cabinet speaks for itself Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve-67 Posted June 16, 2011 Share Posted June 16, 2011 Why didn't RL just tap up Martinez then? Could have been rejected PRIVATELY and then no one would have been the wiser... no-one needed to know then did they? Conspiracy theory coming up. Perhaps McLeish was always the number one target and by playing the game with Wigan, we enhanced the reputation of the club in doing things properly so the F.A. would believe that we have acted honorourably with Big Eck, if and when it gets investigated. Attack is the best form of defence with Big Eck also filing for constructive dismissal? No? Didin't think so either lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drewdat Posted June 16, 2011 Share Posted June 16, 2011 Moyes has a better transfer record, better record with youth players moving into the squad, has achieved far more in England, is younger, and would have a better chance at keeping Downing and others, in my opinion. McLeish has some nice achievements that don't necessarily translate to the situation at hand, and he also has some shockers on the CV, such as leading Rangers to 3rd in Scotland and getting relegated with a couple different teams. It's probably unfair not to give him some credit for the Carling Cup (regardless of how easy the draw was and how lucky they were), for success in Europe at Rangers, and for repromoting Hibs and SHA after relegating each. It's also hard to tell just how much of the struggles at SHA were down to the board's interference and incompetence--however, it seems that last year's result was inexcusable regardless of any meddling based on the amount that Yeung invested in the net spend. And SHA allowed one more (or was it less?) goal than Villa last season--how much of McLeish's defensive reputation is staked onto lucking into loaning Hart and buying the central pairing from lower leagues (as well as negative football)? Hopefully he can tighten up our defence, but last season would suggest that the pieces may not be on the roster at present. I will say that I originally saw McLeish's resignation by email as unprofessional, but it appears that it was turnabout as his chief scout had been fired in a similar manner. So at least that reservation has been removed. But the biggest red flag of taking McLeish over similar (for argument's sake) candidates is the divisive nature of his appointment. McLeish has nowhere near the credentials to overcome the initial shock of his appointment for many supporters, especially coming freshly off a relegation. Funny when it happens, sad when you cast your fortunes on the architect. The board had to consider the effects of this hire, and I'm sure they think they have, but perhaps they were considering more of an internet furor rather than something with tangible effect. But every disappointing result, every young player that isn't getting enough time, every struggling starter that gets repeated chances, and every substitution made or unmade will carry that much more scrutiny unless and until McLeish puts up a lot of surprisingly good results. And although it would be nice if everyone could support him until he's proven himself one way or the other, it's unrealistic. I think most people have a strongly held opinion formed when they first heard of the likely appointment, and that opinion is going to be tough to completely change. Just my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost_of_Pongo_Waring Posted June 16, 2011 Share Posted June 16, 2011 I think the exteme negativity is over the top and not fully reasoned. It seems emotional as opposed to dispassionate (which you could say is childish) How does being emotional equate to being childish? Also how is defence his strength but our weakness when we conceded only one less goal than they did under him? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stan_boy Posted June 16, 2011 Share Posted June 16, 2011 What I find most saddening about this is that Randy and the General have completely obliterated their excellent relationship with the fans in just a few days. Totally agree, it's very sad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jat_r Posted June 16, 2011 Share Posted June 16, 2011 What I find most saddening about this is that Randy and the General have completely obliterated their excellent relationship with the fans in just a few days. Totally agree, it's very sad. I agree also. Always been proud of the way we were run and how the board actually gave a shit about the fans... Now its like we have Mike Ashley running the club! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gramme Posted June 16, 2011 Share Posted June 16, 2011 Also, I was wondering if McLeish would play better football at Villa as he has better players, and I wondered what type of football he played at Rangers. Because surely the style of play he used at Rangers would be similar at Villa. Any SPL fans know? He played the type of football that had Rangers fans protesting against him before he was relieved of his duties. They finished third that season. Also, let's explode the myth AGAIN of McLeish 'sorting out the defence'. Blues conceded ONE less goal than us last season, and we were **** dreadful at the back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyalVilla Posted June 16, 2011 Share Posted June 16, 2011 I think the exteme negativity is over the top and not fully reasoned. It seems emotional as opposed to dispassionate (which you could say is childish) How does being emotional equate to being childish? I have kids. They draw conclusions based on their immediate emotions far more often than than adults do because adults have learned to reason. There's nothing wrong with emotion, but emotional decisions tend to be bad ones. Emotions cloud our judgement Also how is defence his strength but our weakness when we conceded only one less goal than they did under him? We have a much better team than he had. His defence had bad injuries and didn't have the depth of squad to cope. He was a top class defender and has an excellent reputation as a defensive coach Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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