ROTTERDAM1982 Posted October 7, 2014 Share Posted October 7, 2014 I completely disagree Trent.It is not a West problem.The reason why we keep being targeted is because we keep interfering.It is a Muslim problem, that must have a muslim solution.The West can offer mediation, but its up to Turkey, Saudi et al to sort out Isis imho. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maqroll Posted October 7, 2014 Share Posted October 7, 2014 Problem with that is, if we didn't topple Hussein, IS does not exist there, they'd never have tried their luck. We created the power vacuum there, and in rushed the worst of the worst. So we do have a responsibility now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rugeley Villa Posted October 7, 2014 Share Posted October 7, 2014 hussein was never a threat to the west, infact we made a huge mistake by getting rid of him but war comes before anything i suppose the air strikes against IS are doing naff all so it looks like its boots on the ground again which we all knew was required. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutByEaster? Posted October 7, 2014 Moderator Share Posted October 7, 2014 Like Britain before it, the US has tended to support radical Islam and to oppose secular nationalism, which both imperial states have regarded as more threatening to their goals of domination and control. When secular options are crushed, religious extremism often fills the vacuum. Furthermore, the primary US ally over the years, Saudi Arabia, is the most radical Islamist state in the world and also a missionary state, which uses its vast oil resources to promulgate its extremist Wahabi/Salafi doctrines by establishing schools, mosques, and in other ways, and has also been the primary source for the funding of radical Islamist groups, along with Gulf Emirates - all US allies. Noam Chomsky in a recent interview - I think that's nail on the head. It also goes some way to explaining why we're in no rush to stop them. Ultimately, a solution in the region needs to be achieved by empowering, not enslaving its people. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awol Posted October 7, 2014 Share Posted October 7, 2014 (edited) Like Britain before it, the US has tended to support radical Islam and to oppose secular nationalism, which both imperial states have regarded as more threatening to their goals of domination and control. When secular options are crushed, religious extremism often fills the vacuum. Furthermore, the primary US ally over the years, Saudi Arabia, is the most radical Islamist state in the world and also a missionary state, which uses its vast oil resources to promulgate its extremist Wahabi/Salafi doctrines by establishing schools, mosques, and in other ways, and has also been the primary source for the funding of radical Islamist groups, along with Gulf Emirates - all US allies. Noam Chomsky in a recent interview - I think that's nail on the head. It also goes some way to explaining why we're in no rush to stop them. What he says isn't really true though. The west has supported secular nationalism (or at least 'Islam light') in Turkey, Egypt, Iraq - until we didn't - and the Gulf States. That's not the same as trying to install democracy which was actively avoided, mainly due to a recognition that in the region generally the conservatism/radicalism comes more from the street than the decadent royal courts of the petro-monarchies. Taking the totalitarian lid off societies brimming with sectarian prejudice is what has led to the current situation. For the west the name of the game is stability, or at least it was until we decided that everyone should live as we do.Ultimately, a solution in the region needs to be achieved by empowering, not enslaving its people. Funny thing, but lots of very well educated and none privileged Arabs I speak to frequently say the opposite. They view democracy as a foreign construct unsuited to their societies, which require a firm hand to keep them in line. Edit: quoteitis, still not fixed... Edited October 7, 2014 by Awol 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mantis Posted October 7, 2014 Share Posted October 7, 2014 Problem with that is, if we didn't topple Hussein, IS does not exist there, they'd never have tried their luck. We created the power vacuum there, and in rushed the worst of the worst. So we do have a responsibility now. It's impossible to say what might have happened really, especially since the Arab Spring. Iraq could've well ended up like Syria has been for the past few years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ads Posted October 7, 2014 Share Posted October 7, 2014 I wonder whether it will be he threat of the PKK kicking off again in Turkey which forces them to act regarding Kobane? Turkey might be buddies with IS, but the strategic ball ache of having them sat on their border, linking the northern flank up of IS, should be a bridge too far. The US has finally provided sustained support above Kobane to the YPG. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kidlewis Posted October 7, 2014 Share Posted October 7, 2014 I watched this and thought it was interesting, but then just felt it was another conspiracy nonce sense! But it sounds plausible. I then decided to read some of the comments, and that's where it gets bat Sh*t crazy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted October 8, 2014 Share Posted October 8, 2014 Hard Talk interview with Lord Richards was quite interesting, if for nothing more than it was mostly a valiant lobbyist's effort for more funding (to paraphrase), " If you don't give us [the military]* more money, you'll be less safe [from IS and elsewhere]."*I guess he's technically no longer a part of the military but... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maqroll Posted October 8, 2014 Share Posted October 8, 2014 Raytheon and Lockheed Martin stock is skyrocketing right now.....and that is what this all boils down to, in my estimation. Radical jihadism with it's real and contrived menace is the goose that keeps laying the golden egg for the military industrial complex. We have people like Hillary Clinton and Leon Panetta saying things like "Endless war", and "30 year war"....music to the ears of weapons manufacturers and their shareholders. It's a diseased world we live in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AVFC_Hitz Posted October 8, 2014 Share Posted October 8, 2014 Turkey standing by as Isis do the job they failed to do for many years. The mass killing of the Kurds is something they'll let happen in order to create the buffer zone between Turkey and Syria. Huge protests in Istanbul trying to highlight this led to a huge street battle and tear gas last night, as I was enjoying a beer. A face full of that stuff isn't nice. 9 dead so far (although not in Istanbul) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awol Posted October 8, 2014 Share Posted October 8, 2014 Hard Talk interview with Lord Richards was quite interesting, if for nothing more than it was mostly a valiant lobbyist's effort for more funding (to paraphrase), " If you don't give us [the military]* more money, you'll be less safe [from IS and elsewhere]." *I guess he's technically no longer a part of the military but... If a cancer specialist were to suggest "give us more resources and cancer care will be better", that's called common sense. When a defence specialist suggests "give us more resources and defence capability will be better", that's the voice of a lobbyist. Wierd. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awol Posted October 8, 2014 Share Posted October 8, 2014 (edited) We have people like Hillary Clinton and Leon Panetta saying things like "Endless war", and "30 year war".... 'Endless war' might be over egging things a touch, but 30 years isn't unthinkable. Europe went through exactly the same thing when Christianity went to war with itself. Despite claims to the contrary the current conflict in the ME is at its root a religious confrontation. Edited October 8, 2014 by Awol 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maqroll Posted October 8, 2014 Share Posted October 8, 2014 We have people like Hillary Clinton and Leon Panetta saying things like "Endless war", and "30 year war".... 'Endless war' might be over egging things a touch, but 30 years isn't unthinkable. Europe went through exactly the same thing when Christianity went to war with itself. Despite claims to the contrary the current conflict in the ME is at its root a religious confrontation. Gleefully exploited by the usual corporate parasites and their bidders in Congress and Parliament. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DanishVillan Posted October 8, 2014 Share Posted October 8, 2014 I watched this and thought it was interesting, but then just felt it was another conspiracy nonce sense! But it sounds plausible. I then decided to read some of the comments, and that's where it gets bat Sh*t crazy! Not his best piece but I do like his videos. This one about Ukraine nails it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted October 8, 2014 Share Posted October 8, 2014 If a cancer specialist were to suggest "give us more resources and cancer care will be better", that's called common sense.When a defence specialist suggests "give us more resources and defence capability will be better", that's the voice of a lobbyist.Wierd.I'd suggest the first might well be a lobbyist, too - or at least someone speaking up for their vested interest.Just like, say, an ACPO spokesperson calling for more funding for the police, greater powers of arrest and new laws, or the head of a social serives department wanting increased manpower.What is 'weird' is that you juxtaposed what I've said with something that you've thought and wondered why they aren't the same. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awol Posted October 8, 2014 Share Posted October 8, 2014 Surprised no one has mentioned the four arrests in London yesterday linked to an alleged beheading plot inspired by those lovely chaps in Syria & Iraq? Read that one of them is apparently an IS veteran who has returned from that conflict. Posting from a phone so getting a link up is a bit beyond my technical competence - apologies to MOD's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awol Posted October 8, 2014 Share Posted October 8, 2014 (edited) If a cancer specialist were to suggest "give us more resources and cancer care will be better", that's called common sense. When a defence specialist suggests "give us more resources and defence capability will be better", that's the voice of a lobbyist. Wierd.I'd suggest the first might well be a lobbyist, too - or at least someone speaking up for their vested interest. Just like, say, an ACPO spokesperson calling for more funding for the police, greater powers of arrest and new laws, or the head of a social serives department wanting increased manpower. What is 'weird' is that you juxtaposed what I've said with something that you've thought and wondered why they aren't the same. My point wasn't related to your comments particularly, just an observation that people calling for increased defence spending seem to be viewed with more suspicion by the average layman than say, a medical professional. I find that a little odd given that most people have no more idea about defence than they do about curing cancer, but seem more inclined to take one at face value than the other. Anyway no big deal, carry on! Edited October 8, 2014 by Awol 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrentVilla Posted October 8, 2014 Moderator Share Posted October 8, 2014 Surprised no one has mentioned the four arrests in London yesterday linked to an alleged beheading plot inspired by those lovely chaps in Syria & Iraq? Read that one of them is apparently an IS veteran who has returned from that conflict. Posting from a phone so getting a link up is a bit beyond my technical competence - apologies to MOD's. Yeah I saw that and thought about mentioning it but thought better of it as I thought it would like be dismissed as 'convenient' and a mechanism of our satanic overlords in Westminster stealing our civil liberties or some such like. Concerning and reassuring news really, concerning that these people are returning and seemingly plotting things on our soil and reassuring that the security services were watching. It will be interesting to see how and if the story develops, talking of which the story about the poor women who was beheaded in London seems to have been kept pretty quiet since the story first broke. PS - no link required if you aren't quoting something. Edit - more concerning is the fact that one of those arrested was a medical student which makes you wonder about the nature of the threat. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Xann Posted October 8, 2014 Popular Post Share Posted October 8, 2014 ... “the conflict between Israel and Palestine can only be solved with a two-state solution,” and that, “a two-state solution requires mutual recognition and a will to peaceful co-existence. Sweden will therefore recognize the state of Palestine.”... First major EU country to do so. Clicky 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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