Nathan Baker

[Con]

I think a CB, especially one who has played FB in his career should fit into a back three easily, and although still lacking experience, Baker has those credentials.

Having played FB before does not give him any credentials to play FB again, let alone "easily".

N'Zogbia has played FB before. He has no credentials as a full back.

And it's not how easily they play there, it's how well they play there. Baker is a good FB? Good is not good enough against an excellent winger.

Baker should stay at CB where he is superb.

As for having to be smaller to deal with agile wingers, well these days many of the top strikers are small and agile, if Baker can't deal with that he's not got a future at the top level.

Not at fullback, obviously. That is where the nippy wingers are at their nippiest. This is exactly my point.

You don't want your rangy players caught trying to defend the corners.

At centre back Baker and those like him do have a future. Why? Because of the need to defend against tall, powerful forwards like Benteke.

If you reduce the height and bulk of your centrebacks too much the opposition will stick a big guy up front and you will get run over and concede a lot of goals from crosses and at set pieces.

I think a big lumbering dinosaur like Dunne would struggle to have a top flight career if he was starting out today because he really does struggle against small tricky strikers. Saying that I'd have him back in the side for the rest of this season because despite that he has the experience to organise that mess at the back.

If he can earn his place, start him. I wouldn't play him FB or in a three CB system where he could become exposed in a FB position.

Edited January 21, 2013 by Con

[Kingfisher]

If he played CB in an orthodox back four he'd come up against players like Suarez, Silva, Aguero, Walcott, Hernandez etc anyway, so I think the premise of your argument that Baker can't handle small nippy players so can't play either side of a back three is a bit of a moot one.

[Dr_Pangloss]

Baker is handy but his lack of pace is an issue.

[HolteEndRob]

They are all slow, not just Baker. The difference is, Vlaar is experienced enough to try to make up for his lack of pace with his positioning. Something Baker and Clark are useless at.

[LockStockVilla]

See, I always thought, from what I have seen, that Baker is not that slow. Certainly no slower than someone like Vlaar, for example.

Edit: HolteEndRob's post just made mine a moot point

Edited January 21, 2013 by LockStockVilla

[mikeyp102]

Any news on the injury?

[Con]

If he played CB in an orthodox back four he'd come up against players like Suarez, Silva, Aguero, Walcott, Hernandez etc anyway, so I think the premise of your argument that Baker can't handle small nippy players so can't play either side of a back three is a bit of a moot one.

Not necessarily. He would be handling them under different circumstances, in a different area of the pitch.

Out on a wing the attacking player runs fast, then stops fast, because he either runs out of pitch/wants to get the cross in.

Down the middle the attacking player doesn't do that.

Against Odemwingie, Baker simply didn't have the 'brakes' to handle his momentum after Odemwingie stopped and turned inside.

In attempting to 'brake' he ripped a muscle. Too big for that position.

Edited January 21, 2013 by Con

[dont_do_it_doug.]

What the....

I mean I understand your point, but he wasn't playing left back. He was playing on the left side of a central three. He was covering the position as most players are asked to do at some point.

Are you genuinely trying to level blame at the manager for Baker tweaking his hamstring?

[AndyBM]

i wonder if fans from other clubs on other clubs forums go into as much depth of chat as we do on here...

Edited January 21, 2013 by AndyBM

[Villarocker]

Con, no disrespect mate but you seriously need to change your name to The Analyst!

[Con]

What the....

I mean I understand your point, but he wasn't playing left back. He was playing on the left side of a central three. He was covering the position as most players are asked to do at some point.

Are you genuinely trying to level blame at the manager for Baker tweaking his hamstring?

Error but mitigating circumstances: 3 CBs are not played that often at this level so we are just becoming aware of the pros and cons... work in progress.

if 3 CBs system takes off - and since we are 17th I've no reason to believe yet that it will at this club - it might in future be considered an error to play the Baker-type on the side of the middle guy in the 3, where he has to cover the LB/RB position for WBs gone AWOL.

[Con]

i wonder if fans from other clubs on other clubs forums go into as much depth of chat as we do on here...

maybe, maybe not.

but they can do now if they want... didn't used to have sites that gave us all these football stats for free, like squawka.com and whoscored.com.

banter between fans can, and will be, taken to another level.

anyone can be an analyst with Statto-like knowledge at their finger tips.

maybe the teams with the best fans will help their team most by providing the most informed analysis on forums like this.

[Kingfisher]

Not necessarily. He would be handling them under different circumstances, in a different area of the pitch.

Out on a wing the attacking player runs fast, then stops fast, because he either runs out of pitch/wants to get the cross in.

Down the middle the attacking player doesn't do that.

Against Odemwingie, Baker simply didn't have the 'brakes' to handle his momentum after Odemwingie stopped and turned inside.

In attempting to 'brake' he ripped a muscle. Too big for that position.

He doesn't look particularly slow for a defender, or too slow for the league. I don't think you need extra pace above and beyond what a normal CB requires to play 'that' position. What you do need is positioning and awareness and he looks promising in that department.

I think you're stretching your argument beyond anything grounded in reality by using his pulled muscle as a reasoning point. He's going to have to sprint and turn quickly wherever he plays, all through his career, he's a footballer. The pulled muscle was bad luck.

[Con]

He doesn't look particularly slow for a defender, or too slow for the league. I don't think you need extra pace above and beyond what a normal CB requires to play 'that' position. What you do need is positioning and awareness and he looks promising in that department.

Not necessarily pace, I agree.

It's agility. Centre of gravity.

The average height of a Premier League LB/RB is much shorter than the average height of a Premier League CB because that position requires greater agility - the ability to stop and start, get up and down, change direction quickly.

It's easier to be more agile if you don't look like you've spent the last year eating at McDonalds*.

*This doesn't apply to Baker, he's just big-boned.

I think you're stretching your argument beyond anything grounded in reality by using his pulled muscle as a reasoning point. He's going to have to sprint and turn quickly wherever he plays, all through his career, he's a footballer. The pulled muscle was bad luck.

The point is the CB either side of the middle CB in the 3 CB system has to fill in at LB/RB much more often than he would have to if he was one of 2 CBs in a back 4 because the 2 WBs in the back 5 are much more aggressive, go forward and get caught out more often, than 2 traditional FBs.

The ideal CB pair in a 2 CB system averages about 6'2 / 6'3 height.

But if you move to a 3 CB system although you keep one of these 6'3 guys in the middle his wingmen need to be shorter and lighter: 5'10 - 6', so they are more agile and can cope with the extra wing play, whilst still being tall and strong enough for traditional CB tasks.

In other words the wingmen of the alpha CB needs to be hybrid FB/CB. Baker is not one. He's an alpha.

Am I making sense?

Edited January 21, 2013 by Con

[Kingfisher]

Andrea Barzagli isn't agile or pacey, he plays the position perfectly by all accounts, with great awareness and strong tackling being his forte.

[Con]

Andrea Barzagli isn't agile or pacey, he plays the position perfectly by all accounts, with great awareness and strong tackling being his forte.

Wikipage has him down as a 6'1 central defender. He would be a good wingman on a 3 CB back line.

The Italian league where he plays FB? (your implication?) is not as quick as the Premiership. 6'1 is beyond the upper limit for what I think would be required for a great FB so I suspect he would not do so well in the Premier League at FB.

Since he is noted as a CB his most favoured position is probably CB, not FB.

I'm not claiming that CBs can't play RB/LB. Ivanovic and Huth, of all defenders, have played there.

I'm saying the best ones, on average, won't be built like CBs.

Play them FB, their relative lack of agility will be exploited all day by speedy, nippy wingers. This applies to the wingmen in a CB back 3 who have to cover the attacking WBs.

Edited January 22, 2013 by Con

[Kingfisher]

Sorry there is some confusion. I'm not talking about CB's playing FB at all, of which I'm not really a fan. As for a CB playing WB, not a chance, I don't know where this has come from in your post.

I'm saying Barzagli plays in a back three and has none of the physical attributes you say is essential to the role, he is a classic CB. He plays very well there by all accounts. You could argue Serie A doesn't have the abundance of pace that the PL does, and this weakness of Barzagli's would be exposed here, but I think this is a moot point as I've explained earlier.

BTW I'm arguing all this but I think we should go to a back four as soon as Dunne gets back. Nothing to do with Baker, I think Bennett and Lowton aren't up to the job of playing WB, not yet at least.

[Con]

Sorry there is some confusion. I'm not talking about CB's playing FB at all, of which I'm not really a fan. As for a CB playing WB, not a chance, I don't know where this has come from in your post.

CB not playing WB, covering WB when he gets caught out of position. So the wingmen CBs in the 3 need more skills similar to a fullback than traditional CBs in a back 2.

I'm saying Barzagli plays in a back three and has none of the physical attributes you say is essential to the role, he is a classic CB. He plays very well there by all accounts. You could argue Serie A doesn't have the abundance of pace that the PL does, and this weakness of Barzagli's would be exposed here, but I think this is a moot point as I've explained earlier.

He's 6'1. That's just above my 5'10 - 6' range I suggested would be appropriate for a great wingman in a back 3. Perhaps I could extend that range to 6'1 for the slower Italian league.

Nothing about him contradicts what I have said.

BTW I'm arguing all this but I think we should go to a back four as soon as Dunne gets back. Nothing to do with Baker, I think Bennett and Lowton aren't up to the job of playing WB, not yet at least.

I agree. They hog the ball and kick long balls that go nowhere.

BTW, Baker is currently the Villa player with the highest long ball accuracy, which surprised me. I thought Clark or Vlaar, if not Bennett or Lowton. Relatively small sample size though.

[Baker]

He will come good.

I base this opinion solely on his surname.

[danceoftheshamen]

I think he will too.. Once he's fully developed his outer crust........................Sorry couldn't resist