Global Warming

[sidcow]

As I've mentioned is elsewhere.  Anyone fancy a free heat pump?  House doesn't qualify?  OK how about having it for about £500 more than a new boiler and enjoy the far cheaper running costs

https://octopus.energy/press/octopus-energy-unveils-next-stage-in-smart-heat-revolution-at-energy-tech-summit/

Octopus Energy unveils next stage in smart heat revolution at Energy Tech Summit

British designed, British manufactured, optimised for British homes. Another major step in opening up heat pumps for everyone

It consists of the ‘Cosy 6’, Octopus’ new heat pump; ‘Cosy Hub’, a home controls system; ‘Cosy Pods’, room sensors; a bespoke smart tariff; and the award-winning Octopus 5-star service.  

Quote

‘Cosy Octopus’ is free for homes that don’t need any work to fit the system after the Boiler Upgrade Scheme (BUS). Homes that need adjustments – such as new radiators, piping or a hot water tank – will get the system from around £3,000 after the grant.

The system will enter the market with a 6kW heat pump – aimed at a typical three-bed UK home – with more and larger models following over the next six months.

Quote

“This is a huge day for clean heating. The combination of a high-temperature heat pump (as hot as a gas boiler), Octopus smart tariffs and room sensors across your home doesn’t just open up cheaper clean heating - but more comfort too.”

In just eight years, Octopus Energy has challenged legacy market incumbents to become the second largest energy supplier in the UK, famous for its fair pricing and exceptional customer service (the only Which? Recommended Energy supplier for six years in a row).

 

Edited September 20, 2023 by sidcow

[markavfc40]

7 hours ago, Xela said:

Clutching at straws I think. The 'motorist' is a big demographic, and while some are pro EV, a lot are yet to be convinced, especially those with no driveways to install a home charger. 

 

If the motorist is just solely focused on if they can still buy a new diesel or petrol car, from the very small pool of manufacturers still producing new ones between 2030 and 2035, then yes it may get the Tories a few votes. You'd like to think the said motorist would also have the required brain cells to see that it will be the same Tories that have presided over bringing this country to its knees over the last 13 years and make their voting decision based on that not on some, in the grand scheme of things, irrelevant bullshit.

Edited September 20, 2023 by markavfc40

[Xela]

1 minute ago, markavfc40 said:

If the motorist is just solely focused on if they can still buy a new diesel or petrol car, from the very small pool of manufacturers still producing new ones between 2030 and 2035, then yes it may get the Tories a few votes. You'd like to think the said motorist would also have the required brain cells to see that it will be the same Tories that have presided over bringing this country to it's knees over the last 13 years and make their voting decision based on that not on some, in the grand scheme of things, irrelevant bullshit.

It won't be enough to save them. They'll be out of power at the next election i'm sure. 

[sidcow]

10 minutes ago, mjmooney said:

There's the rub for people like me. Rads will need replacing, no hot water tank, but the big one is insulation. I live in a big stone-built house, dating from 1910. No cavity walls, large attic but tiny loft. Proper insulation is next to impossible. 

It runs as hot as a gas boiler so really should be more of a straight swap.  OK you would need a water tank but they're modern under pressure thanks that can go anywhere, not like the copper tank in the airing cupboard with the red jacket - super insulated.

Bigger radiators will help because it will allow you to run it at a lower temperature than the max which will make it more efficient.

Not much you can do about insulation on a house like that but as it's a high temperature heat pump it's more an issue around running costs than warmth.  However even if running really inefficiently it will still be massively more efficient than then most efficient gas boiler.

This is why it's so so key that we start paying the true cost of electricity and not the artificially inflated cost of electricity that we do now.  Heat Pumps SHOULD ALREADY be a no brainer because of the super cheap running costs but the fact that Gas is cheaper than it should be and electricity is more expensive than it should be means they're currently only a bit cheaper to run...which is ridiculous.

I've a feeling this Octopus tariff might smash that gap before the Government finally do the right thing anyway.  They're very innovative with their pricing structures.

[blandy]

17 hours ago, sidcow said:

This is why it's so so key that we start paying the true cost of electricity and not the artificially inflated cost of electricity that we do now.  Heat Pumps SHOULD ALREADY be a no brainer because of the super cheap running costs but the fact that Gas is cheaper than it should be and electricity is more expensive than it should be means they're currently only a bit cheaper to run...which is ridiculous.

Well, kind of.

At the moment the price of gas is determined by market forces. It is what it is.

The price of electricity is more complicated. Electricity is generated from various sources - a significant part of which is by burning gas. Another part is nuclear, and solar, and wind and biomass and then other renewables. But they are each generated at different cost, so the price mechanism, which used to be logical (based on the cost of coal, and then later on gas) is no longer logical, because it now comes from all different contracts and sources. Newer contracts with generators are based on a cost plus (contract for difference) type formula, which are not too bad, but older contracts are based on a different arrangement and that means that we pay (now) over the odds for a lot of our electricity. That situation isn't going to change for a long time, until all the old contracts have expired as power stations go out of like and newer sources come on line. The National grid already can't cope with the number of new connections from generator companies that are applied for - they're quoting 10 years in some cases to upgrade the network to take power from new off shore wind farms or on shore sources. So lecky prices are gonna stay artificially high for a long time.

While lecky remains 3 times or so the cost of gas, there's no incentive to replace gas boilers with heat pumps, really. OK, you might be helping the environment a bit, but you're also losing some outside space, fitting larger radiators, hot water tank, having disruption and having to cough up to replace a functioning boiler which then gets thrown away, with something that is no cheaper to run and kind of has to be on all the time to work properly, compared to a gas boiler that you put on only when you need it.

They're far from a no-brainer, heat pumps. There's a lot of noise (positive and negative) about them - marketing and stats and stuff, but there's also a lot of scepticism around cowboy fitters, needing more insulation and draught exclusion and so on.

That the tech is more advanced and better for the climate is one thing, but real world people's lives and housing conditions are another thing. I think there's a lot more thought needed into a more coherent and more integrated plan to help the transition. Like firstly, a big effort on home insulation, so people use less electricity/gas to start with. All new homes and offices etc. should clearly not be given permission to be built unless they meet standards for insulation, energy efficiency, solar panels, no gas appliances, no oil appliances...

[MakemineVanilla]

3 hours ago, blandy said:

That the tech is more advanced and better for the climate is one thing, but real world people's lives and housing conditions are another thing. I think there's a lot more thought needed into a more coherent and more integrated plan to help the transition. Like firstly, a big effort on home insulation, so people use less electricity/gas to start with. All new homes and offices etc. should clearly not be given permission to be built unless they meet standards for insulation, energy efficiency, solar panels, no gas appliances, no oil appliances...

While they are at it, why not enforce a maximum temperature for all workplaces and homes which they are legally allowed to be heated to?

The factory acts already state that workplaces for sendentary workers only have to reach 60F (16C) after the first hour, so why not set the maximum temperature to 65F, which is more than generous.

This would put an end to the modern trend for heating homes to 75F and swanning about in t-shirts.

The energy-savings would be immense and therefore carbon emissions and energy bills would be slashed.

The government already have the powers to send people to jail for failing to insulate their homes properly, so why not for being profligate with energy.

 

 

 

 

[sidcow]

With new enormous wind farms and solar farms on the way we are already at a stage where Gas can generate less than 15% of our power in a day. 

This is going to reduce and reduce and reduce. 

https://www.energylivenews.com/2023/09/21/uk-smashes-low-carbon-record-with-wind-power/

UK smashes low carbon electricity record with wind power

On Monday 18th September, the UK achieved a new low carbon intensity record of 27g/kWh, according to new data

Quote

On 18th September at 2pm, the grid achieved a new low carbon intensity record, hitting just 27 grammes per kilowatt-hour (g/kWh), according to a new report by National Grid ESO.

This beats the previous record set earlier this year on 10th April, which stood at 33 g/kWh.

Quote

Wind power played a pivotal role, contributing 48% of the electricity supply on that day.

Nuclear energy followed at 18.9%, with solar power at 4.3%, and gas at 14.5%.

 

[andym]

12 hours ago, blandy said:

They're far from a no-brainer, heat pumps. There's a lot of noise (positive and negative) about them - marketing and stats and stuff, but there's also a lot of scepticism around cowboy fitters, needing more insulation and draught exclusion and so on.

There can be quite a lot of noise literally as well.

Depending on model, they are not the quietest, and you can end up with issues when you've got houses close together or flats.

Hopefully that should change going forward with manufacturers working to improve designs.

[LondonLax]

5 hours ago, andym said:

There can be quite a lot of noise literally as well.

Depending on model, they are not the quietest, and you can end up with issues when you've got houses close together or flats.

Hopefully that should change going forward with manufacturers working to improve designs.

They are quite good though in that they are also an air conditioner in the summer, which the main way we use them in Australia. AC in the summer and then the occasional heating on a chilly winter day. 

In fact where I’m from we don’t even refer to them as ‘heat pumps’, we call them ‘reverse cycle air-conditioning’ 

Edited September 22, 2023 by LondonLax

[sidcow]

8 hours ago, andym said:

There can be quite a lot of noise literally as well.

Depending on model, they are not the quietest, and you can end up with issues when you've got houses close together or flats.

Hopefully that should change going forward with manufacturers working to improve designs.

This has been completely debunked.. They make about as much noise as your fridge and sit outside the home. 

More noise from the Oil and Gas lobby orchestrating bad press. 

[sidcow]

2 hours ago, LondonLax said:

They are quite good though in that they are also an air conditioner in the summer, which the main way we use them in Australia. AC in the summer and then the occasional heating on a chilly winter day. 

In fact where I’m from we don’t even refer to them as ‘heat pumps’, we call them ‘reverse cycle air-conditioning’ 

We're more likely to use Air to Water in the UK so unless they can split them somehow for a bit of air to air as well. 

How do all your mates sleep at night with the racket they make? 

Edited September 22, 2023 by sidcow

[LondonLax]

17 minutes ago, sidcow said:

We're more likely to use Air to Water in the UK so unless they can split them somehow for a bit of air to air as well. 

How do all your mates sleep at night with the racket they make? 

The box that makes noise is outside and the vent part is inside. It’s not that loud. 

[sidcow]

1 hour ago, LondonLax said:

The box that makes noise is outside and the vent part is inside. It’s not that loud. 

Yeah, sorry.  It was tongue in cheek regarding the posts above about how noisy heat pumps are.

[andym]

52 minutes ago, sidcow said:

This has been completely debunked.. They make about as much noise as your fridge and sit outside the home. 

More noise from the Oil and Gas lobby orchestrating bad press. 

I'm an acoustic engineer working in environmental acoustics. They absolutely can generate noise that leads to complaints at a neighbouring property; this is generally only where you have a heat pump installed facing directly at a window of your neighbour, only a few metres away, and the underlying sound levels in the area are quite low (so not an inner city location), but it does happen. The assessment method and criteria for heat pumps installed under permitted development rights is not ideal and doesn't take account of strong acoustic features such as tones that heat pumps can generate, and doesn't take account of the variation in existing baseline sound levels in different areas. (i've got a good paper on this saved somewhere on my computer, happy to send it to you if i can find it). I'm absolutely not against heat pumps, but there are aspects about them that could be improved, such as noise. As i said, a lot does depend on model, and also quality of installation and maintenance.

More generally, there is an overall distinct lack of joined up thinking on planning and building and climate change.

Plenty of sites get planning permission right next to busy roads or railways, and future living conditions are way down the list of considerations for developers and the local authority who are usually more concerned about housing density and streetscenes etc. Then you always get government ministers banging on about using brownfield sites; however these are often in noisy/more polluted areas.

As a result you end up with houses where occupants are not being able to open windows to avoid overheating in the summer due to noise (and other issues such as poor air quality), so they end up with mechanical ventilation/cooling, which requires more energy use (and chiller units etc generate heat themselves).  

Of course there are solutions; could be architecturally such as brise soleil/exterior shutters to mitigate the overheating while windows stay closed (you know, like they do in hot Mediterranean counties), but good luck getting that past the local planning committee who will object as 'its not in keeping with the area', or houses could not be put right next to a road, maybe with some nice landscaping in between, but good luck getting a developer to give up a few plots and therefore potential profit.

 

 

 

 

[sidcow]

7 minutes ago, andym said:

I'm an acoustic engineer working in environmental acoustics. They absolutely can generate noise that leads to complaints at a neighbouring property; this is generally only where you have a heat pump installed facing directly at a window of your neighbour, only a few metres away, and the underlying sound levels in the area are quite low (so not an inner city location), but it does happen. The assessment method and criteria for heat pumps installed under permitted development rights is not ideal and doesn't take account of strong acoustic features such as tones that heat pumps can generate, and doesn't take account of the variation in existing baseline sound levels in different areas. (i've got a good paper on this saved somewhere on my computer, happy to send it to you if i can find it). I'm absolutely not against heat pumps, but there are aspects about them that could be improved, such as noise. As i said, a lot does depend on model, and also quality of installation and maintenance.

More generally, there is an overall distinct lack of joined up thinking on planning and building and climate change.

Plenty of sites get planning permission right next to busy roads or railways, and future living conditions are way down the list of considerations for developers and the local authority who are usually more concerned about housing density and streetscenes etc. Then you always get government ministers banging on about using brownfield sites; however these are often in noisy/more polluted areas.

As a result you end up with houses where occupants are not being able to open windows to avoid overheating in the summer due to noise (and other issues such as poor air quality), so they end up with mechanical ventilation/cooling, which requires more energy use (and chiller units etc generate heat themselves).  

Of course there are solutions; could be architecturally such as brise soleil/exterior shutters to mitigate the overheating while windows stay closed (you know, like they do in hot Mediterranean counties), but good luck getting that past the local planning committee who will object as 'its not in keeping with the area', or houses could not be put right next to a road, maybe with some nice landscaping in between, but good luck getting a developer to give up a few plots and therefore potential profit.

 

 

 

 

Well maybe, but the noise issue flies in the face of the experience of pretty much every owner of them I've seen.  in fact it's one of the first things they seek to comment on and debunk.

Maybe you are looking at major industrial ones?  Maybe they are badly installed.

Edited September 22, 2023 by sidcow

[andym]

3 minutes ago, sidcow said:

Well maybe, but the noise issue flies in the face of the experience of pretty much every owner of them I've seen.  in fact it's one of the first things they seek to comment on and debunk.

Maybe you are looking at major industrial ones?  Maybe they are badly installed.

No we do come across people complaining about their neighbours domestic one, which i think is key - people are generally much more sensitive to something new someone else has installed. Like i said, its not a massively widespread issue, generally occurring where you have heat pumps close to neighbours windows in quieter areas, but its not uncommon. 

You are correct bad installations and maintenance can be a problem (they have fans and compressors in - if they are not working correctly and efficiently they will be noisier), but also the way the installation and accreditation scheme (MCS) works can result in an installer underestimating the noise level likely at a neighbour and not specifying an appropriate model. For example, the MCS scheme allows the installer to take account of screening structures such as fences in the noise calculation; as a lay person they will see a garden fence fully blocking the view from the heat pump to a neighbour, and based on the MCS calculation will knock off 10dB. However, in practice, a standard garden fence (likely to be in poor repair) will be pretty poor acoustically, doing nowhere near 10dB in attenuation, so the noise level at the neighbour will be higher in practice, and more likely to lead to a complaint. If the calc was done properly, it would result in a quieter model being selected (or mitigation such as acoustic enclosures being recommended), so a lower actual noise level at the neighbour, and a complaint less likely.

Ultimately, as they become more widespread in use, any noise issues will lead to manufacturers improving designs so they become quieter.

[VILLAMARV]

MrsVM is loads more sensitive to noise than me. Wouldn't bother me in the slightest if the next door terrace had one a metre from our open windows but MrsVM would definitely react.

[lapal_fan]

2 hours ago, sidcow said:

This has been completely debunked.. They make about as much noise as your fridge and sit outside the home. 

More noise from the Oil and Gas lobby orchestrating bad press. 

They do make noise. 

I worked for a mechanical/electrical engineering consultancy and they have a division for acoustics. 

More so for larger scale than "houses", but there's a lot of science into placing them and stopping/reducing the noise AND vibration. 

If you have a block of flats for example, the compressors on a hot day will be whirring away. 

My wife has moved into new offices and she can hear the ASHPs from the 2nd floor, with closed windows and has called it "noisy" in the past. 

The placement in large buildings without space outside and limited space on the roof is a problem in which lots of engineering has to be done to stop the noise and vibrating.  

Unfortunately, it's not nonsense. 

[Davkaus]

On 20/09/2023 at 16:51, sidcow said:

As I've mentioned is elsewhere.  Anyone fancy a free heat pump?  House doesn't qualify?  OK how about having it for about £500 more than a new boiler and enjoy the far cheaper running costs

https://octopus.energy/press/octopus-energy-unveils-next-stage-in-smart-heat-revolution-at-energy-tech-summit/

Octopus Energy unveils next stage in smart heat revolution at Energy Tech Summit

British designed, British manufactured, optimised for British homes. Another major step in opening up heat pumps for everyone

It consists of the ‘Cosy 6’, Octopus’ new heat pump; ‘Cosy Hub’, a home controls system; ‘Cosy Pods’, room sensors; a bespoke smart tariff; and the award-winning Octopus 5-star service.  

 

I just heard back from them after filling in a quick form about my house.

So, they're not free for anyone, there's a base price of 500 quid. I'm not exactly sure which factors affected it, but for a 3 bed semi built in the 90s, my quote came out to 1600. Next steps is someone coming out, checking out the space, the radiators, condition of the insulation, etc, and confirming it's suitable and there will be no other surprises, but unless anything else jumps out at them in the survey that 1600 includes the installation of the heat pump, water cylinder, and any required radiator upgrades

My boiler is getting on a bit, must be 10 years old now, due replacement, and has failed and needed parts replacing 2 or 3 years in a row. I've been waiting on replacing it until such a point that heat pumps are more affordable. Seems a good idea to go for this, but I'm going to mull it over for a few days - this sounds like a good bit of kit, but I'm a bit wary of being an early adopter, and tempted to hang fire and try and get another year out of this boiler and see what the user experience ends up being like for other people.

[sidcow]

57 minutes ago, Davkaus said:

I just heard back from them after filling in a quick form about my house.

So, they're not free for anyone, there's a base price of 500 quid. I'm not exactly sure which factors affected it, but for a 3 bed semi built in the 90s, my quote came out to 1600. Next steps is someone coming out, checking out the space, the radiators, condition of the insulation, etc, and confirming it's suitable and there will be no other surprises, but unless anything else jumps out at them in the survey that 1600 includes the installation of the heat pump, water cylinder, and any required radiator upgrades

My boiler is getting on a bit, must be 10 years old now, due replacement, and has failed and needed parts replacing 2 or 3 years in a row. I've been waiting on replacing it until such a point that heat pumps are more affordable. Seems a good idea to go for this, but I'm going to mull it over for a few days - this sounds like a good bit of kit, but I'm a bit wary of being an early adopter, and tempted to hang fire and try and get another year out of this boiler and see what the user experience ends up being like for other people.

Yes, I'm there too.  Our boiler is still pretty good.  For me it would be more of an ethical decision but I am pretty sure heat pumps are just going to get better.

If you're considering it it's probably worth a bit more of a wait because of this £7,500 that's been mentioned.  You may well get it for free anyway then.

Either way you're not getting a new boiler installed for £1,600 and the heat pump running costs will be cheaper now let alone if they finally do something with electricity prices.  I'm pretty sure Labour will work harder on that than Oil and Gas prime supporters The Tories.

Edited September 22, 2023 by sidcow