foreveryoung Posted July 27, 2023 Share Posted July 27, 2023 27 minutes ago, sidcow said: Car manufacturers who continue to spend large resources developing ICE vehicles will die. Companies like ford who have stated they will have no ICE vehicles by 2030 will thrive. Toyota will dissappear if they persist with this Hydrogen none. Mercedes are only investing 20 billion, they won't die. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidcow Posted July 27, 2023 VT Supporter Share Posted July 27, 2023 50 minutes ago, foreveryoung said: Mercedes are only investing 20 billion, they won't die. No, they'll probably become a design house and brand name for a Chinese firm. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MakemineVanilla Posted July 27, 2023 Share Posted July 27, 2023 22 hours ago, blandy said: Bit of a simplification, but the biggest win would be to stop using fossil fuels for energy generation. So now that we have reached the tipping-point of catastrophic climate-change, do we now have to accept that Thatcher was right to shut the coal mines? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HKP90 Posted July 27, 2023 VT Supporter Share Posted July 27, 2023 24 minutes ago, MakemineVanilla said: So now that we have reached the tipping-point of catastrophic climate-change, do we now have to accept that Thatcher was right to shut the coal mines? Well if she could **** the poor by shutting solar power plants she would have done that, so I wouldn't give her too much credit. Yes I know it's more complex than that, I was being facetious. Apart from the giving her credit thing. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidcow Posted July 27, 2023 VT Supporter Share Posted July 27, 2023 29 minutes ago, MakemineVanilla said: So now that we have reached the tipping-point of catastrophic climate-change, do we now have to accept that Thatcher was right to shut the coal mines? Well clearly not. She shut the mines for financial reasons, not climate-change reasons. An extremely odd take on it. Now if you want to question if it was right for the UK to not spend huge amounts of tax money propping up a failing industry or to let it fail, that's a debate you will get plenty of willing takers for on here, but not in the Global Warming thread. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted July 27, 2023 Share Posted July 27, 2023 2 minutes ago, sidcow said: Well clearly not. She shut the mines for financial reasons, not climate-change reasons. An extremely odd take on it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted July 27, 2023 Share Posted July 27, 2023 16 hours ago, Xela said: Well, thats me not retiring to Spalding! Other than Richmond we aren't really losing anything worthwhile in England so might as well concentrate some defences around there and then carry on as we are Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidcow Posted July 27, 2023 VT Supporter Share Posted July 27, 2023 5 minutes ago, tonyh29 said: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MakemineVanilla Posted July 27, 2023 Share Posted July 27, 2023 7 minutes ago, sidcow said: Well clearly not. She shut the mines for financial reasons, not climate-change reasons. An extremely odd take on it. It certainly was a watershed in British politics and I was an idealistic young socialist at the time, and it seems ironic that it is now the left who are the ones against coal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidcow Posted July 27, 2023 VT Supporter Share Posted July 27, 2023 Just now, MakemineVanilla said: It certainly was a watershed in British politics and I was an idealistic young socialist at the time, and it seems ironic that it is now the left who are the ones against coal. Knowledge changes perception. If people knew then what they know now they would probably have felt different. Or actually wouldn't anyway if we were not just replacing it with cheap forrin coal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidcow Posted July 27, 2023 VT Supporter Share Posted July 27, 2023 Actually, It's a known, proven fact that Oil and Gas companies knew the damage their products were doing to the plant in the early 80's and exactly where it was going to lead us because of scientific studies they commissioned then hushed up. I wonder how much The Coal Board knew? You would think Government and their scientists would have commissioned similar studies at some point. Makes you wonder. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MakemineVanilla Posted July 27, 2023 Share Posted July 27, 2023 9 minutes ago, sidcow said: Knowledge changes perception. If people knew then what they know now they would probably have felt different. Or actually wouldn't anyway if we were not just replacing it with cheap forrin coal. It was definitely a battle between two ideologies - the free market and autarky, where a socialist society became as self-sufficient as possible, leading to less choice but more security. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HKP90 Posted July 27, 2023 VT Supporter Share Posted July 27, 2023 (edited) 17 minutes ago, sidcow said: Actually, It's a known, proven fact that Oil and Gas companies knew the damage their products were doing to the plant in the early 80's and exactly where it was going to lead us because of scientific studies they commissioned then hushed up. I wonder how much The Coal Board knew? You would think Government and their scientists would have commissioned similar studies at some point. Makes you wonder. This is the argument I always use when people talk about excessive regulation damaging economies. Companies care about 1 thing and 1 thing only. Profit. And that's OK. It's understandable. Regulation is there to ensure that in the process of doing whatever it is they are good at, they don't mess anything else up, be it economically, socially or environmentally. Companies rally against this of course, and that's why the lobbying system in America is so disastrous. But you also see it in the Media. PR campaigns by big businesses to change public perception about something. Because Oil companies have stacks of money, they are especially good at this. Expecting Companies to undertake their businesses ethically, or altruistically is folly, always has been. But again, that's OK as long as you keep in mind their motivations and flaws. That's why I always say that change has to be led by governments, not by us as citizens. We are far too susceptible to clever ad campaigns by lobbying business. Shell. Do they really think that because they built a few windfarms and put a few ads on that they have turned another leaf and are now conscious of the damage they've done, or rather that they care? No. It's clearly them realising that there is no economic future in fossil fuels. That's what governments can do. Put economic pressure on these big, dumb, but entirely predictable beasts. On your other point, scientists, including those employed by the government absolutely commissioned studies on this during the 80's. The IPCC was formed in 1988. There just has not been any political capital to do anything about it until recently. BUT it is the government's responsibility not only to enact the will of the people, but also to protect the people from themselves. Climate change frequently falls under the latter. Edited July 27, 2023 by HKP90 typo 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villa89 Posted July 27, 2023 Share Posted July 27, 2023 21 minutes ago, sidcow said: Actually, It's a known, proven fact that Oil and Gas companies knew the damage their products were doing to the plant in the early 80's and exactly where it was going to lead us because of scientific studies they commissioned then hushed up. But everyone knew about the greenhouse effect and potential for Global warming back in the 80's, it wasn't a secret. The problem was that nobody cared. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MakemineVanilla Posted July 27, 2023 Share Posted July 27, 2023 28 minutes ago, villa89 said: But everyone knew about the greenhouse effect and potential for Global warming back in the 80's, it wasn't a secret. The problem was that nobody cared. I don't think people are capable of worrying about more than one thing at a time, or at least not worry wholeheartedly. Back in the 1980s, there was already plenty to worry about, with riots in Birmingham and Bristol, the IRA still active, The Falklands war, and unemployment reaching record post-war levels at 3m. There was so much going on back then, it is tempting to believe that in recent years, post-2008, governments decided that they were in need of some crises to justify their existence. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidcow Posted July 27, 2023 VT Supporter Share Posted July 27, 2023 4 hours ago, MakemineVanilla said: I don't think people are capable of worrying about more than one thing at a time, or at least not worry wholeheartedly. Back in the 1980s, there was already plenty to worry about, with riots in Birmingham and Bristol, the IRA still active, The Falklands war, and unemployment reaching record post-war levels at 3m. There was so much going on back then, it is tempting to believe that in recent years, post-2008, governments decided that they were in need of some crises to justify their existence. Never mind, can't be bothered. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain_Townsend Posted July 27, 2023 Share Posted July 27, 2023 (edited) 10 hours ago, MakemineVanilla said: I don't think people are capable of worrying about more than one thing at a time, or at least not worry wholeheartedly. Back in the 1980s, there was already plenty to worry about, with riots in Birmingham and Bristol, the IRA still active, The Falklands war, and unemployment reaching record post-war levels at 3m. There was so much going on back then, it is tempting to believe that in recent years, post-2008, governments decided that they were in need of some crises to justify their existence. Quite an inward looking take on Global Warming. There are other countries with other perspectives and their own worries you know. Edited July 27, 2023 by Captain_Townsend Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xela Posted July 28, 2023 Share Posted July 28, 2023 On 27/07/2023 at 08:02, sidcow said: Car manufacturers who continue to spend large resources developing ICE vehicles will die. Companies like ford who have stated they will have no ICE vehicles by 2030 will thrive. Toyota will dissappear if they persist with this Hydrogen none. Toyota have a range of electric cars in the works - the bZ (Beyond Zero) range They were one of the pioneers of hybrids as well, with the Prius being the flag bearer for the last 20 years. They will be fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidcow Posted July 28, 2023 VT Supporter Share Posted July 28, 2023 6 hours ago, Xela said: Toyota have a range of electric cars in the works - the bZ (Beyond Zero) range They were one of the pioneers of hybrids as well, with the Prius being the flag bearer for the last 20 years. They will be fine. Hmm. Should be true but they've lost a hell of a lot betting on hydrogen. Gone from VHS pioneers to massively backing Betemax. And they really really transferred to Betemax Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CVByrne Posted July 29, 2023 Share Posted July 29, 2023 On 27/07/2023 at 11:50, villa89 said: But everyone knew about the greenhouse effect and potential for Global warming back in the 80's, it wasn't a secret. The problem was that nobody cared. A combination of bewilderment about what could even be done about it. The sheer global scale of the problem during the Cold War! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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