WC 2010: Group C Chat (England etc)

[AVFC-Prideofbrum]

The problem is at the moment:

Best players playing out of position in an unbalanced side with Gerrard on the left. Lack of creativity and confidence.

So your solution to that is drop the best players and play your decent players in a system that fits to a 4-4-2.

Rather than just changing the system to allow the best players to play in their best positions? Why does that sound weird to you?

I dont understand why Gerrards even considered for the team?? And you dont seem to be able to tell me

Well I have told you. Because he is one of the best players in the world in his position. I also would play a 4-4-1-1 anyway to suit Rooney more than anything rather than Gerrard. Rooney for me is the key player and prefers to play on his own. The reason for the change in system isn't about Gerrard, it's more about Rooney but no doubt it helps Gerrard.

Gerrard can be an inspirational player, Premiership, Champions League. Internationally, like Lampard he's never been great but why? Why can't Gerrard find the same club form for his country? Well, I don't know but maybe at least giving him a go in the position he has played in for the last 4 years of his career, playing off a striker might help. He plays the exact same role for Liverpool, about 50 games a season and then when he's with England, he's played in a completly different role. So maybe if you actually put him in a position where he scores goals and creates goals, that's what he will do.

This whole system is nothing really about Gerrard though is it. 4-4-1-1 allows.

Joe Cole to play on the left. You can have Milner on the right to provide security and stability in the midfield. You have Barry holding, with Lampard because of Barry and Milner, allowed to get forward alot more and support like he can for Chelsea.

Gerrard is then in his best position and if he then plays crap, then you pick other players. Rooney is then in his best position, upfront on his own where he wants to be.

I'd never exclude dropping Rooney, Gerrard for this country but don't you find it stupid how you don't even give them a chance in their best positions. At least play them in the best positions first and give them the chance to show why they should be playing before picking other players.

If Gerrard, Lampard, Rooney all played in their best position against Slovenia, we were terrible, they were terrible but we scraped through, then of course you have to simply look at it and say these players especially Lampard and Gerrard simply don't do it for us on this stage, Rooney to be fair to him has been consistantly one of our best players since breaking through. All I'm saying is, GIVE THE BEST PLAYERS A CHANCE TO PLAY IN THE BEST POSITIONS.

If the players played in the positions they do for the clubs then they'd probably be a little better. Johnson, Terry, Cole, Barry, Lampard, Gerrard, Rooney. So all your supposedly key men in a team, all regularly play 4-5-1/4-3-3/4-2-3-1 type formations for their clubs. Yet for England, they all play 4-4-2. Perhaps if Capello played the formation that these players obviously understand and perform better in, we wouldn't have the problem of the team being unbalanced and players not playing to their best abilities?

[Rainer]

ITV seem to think Milner is going to start on the right tomorrow and Defoe up top with Rooney..

[choffer]

ITV seem to think Milner is going to start on the right tomorrow and Defoe up top with Rooney..

Seems to be a rumour that's gathering pace rather quickly:

ESPN

Jermain Defoe is set to start England's do or die Group C clash against Slovenia after Fabio Capello paired the striker with Wayne Rooney in a crucial training session. Joe Cole and James Milner are also fighting for a starting berth ahead of Aaron Lennon.

England coach Capello is set to ring his biggest changes of the World Cup as Lennon and Emile Heskey are dropped to make way for fresh faces, with captain Steven Gerrard expected to be given more license to attack.

Capello is turning to Plan B in an effort to improve his side's goal threat and is hoping the new line-up will fire England into the second round with victory over Slovenia.

It appears that the Italian has taken on board the opinions of the players, but there is little doubt he made up his own mind, with no player power involved in Capello's remarkable u-turn on tactics and selection.

All the indications are that Capello will play Rooney in an advanced role with Defoe supporting him, which means the misfiring Heskey is discarded.

Either Milner or Cole will play on the right with the ineffectual Lennon axed, although nothing has officially been confirmed yet.

A source inside the England camp informed Soccernet that this is the most likely formation as Capello worked on the new team line-up and personnel in a vital training session in Rustenburg on Tuesday.

"All the nonsense about the players not knowing the team until two hours before the match - the players know what the team is likely to be," the source said. "Anyone watching this training session should have a fair idea of what Fabio has in mind, certainly the players do.

"Fabio used Milner and also Joe Cole on the right side in the training session, Defoe partnered Rooney up front, and it is clear that Gerrard will be given more freedom to attack.

"The key is to unlock the best from Rooney and with four attacking players to support him, the manager is giving this new look England every opportunity to come good and score goals in the critical final match, which everyone knows England must win."

The only enforced change is Matthew Upson, who will step in to partner John Terry as a replacement for the suspended Jamie Carragher.

[AVFC-Prideofbrum]

That isn't too bad at all as long as Defoe is in the supporting role rather than the furtherst forward. If he is though, has to be the question, why not just Joe Cole for for example and Gerrard behind Rooney rather than Defoe.

It sounds promising at least though. Let's get Rooney in the box scoring goals instead of 40 yards from the opponent goal.

[Woodytom]

The problem is at the moment:

Best players playing out of position in an unbalanced side with Gerrard on the left. Lack of creativity and confidence.

So your solution to that is drop the best players and play your decent players in a system that fits to a 4-4-2.

Rather than just changing the system to allow the best players to play in their best positions? Why does that sound weird to you?

I dont understand why Gerrards even considered for the team?? And you dont seem to be able to tell me

Well I have told you. Because he is one of the best players in the world in his position. I also would play a 4-4-1-1 anyway to suit Rooney more than anything rather than Gerrard. Rooney for me is the key player and prefers to play on his own. The reason for the change in system isn't about Gerrard, it's more about Rooney but no doubt it helps Gerrard.

Gerrard can be an inspirational player, Premiership, Champions League. Internationally, like Lampard he's never been great but why? Why can't Gerrard find the same club form for his country? Well, I don't know but maybe at least giving him a go in the position he has played in for the last 4 years of his career, playing off a striker might help. He plays the exact same role for Liverpool, about 50 games a season and then when he's with England, he's played in a completly different role. So maybe if you actually put him in a position where he scores goals and creates goals, that's what he will do.

This whole system is nothing really about Gerrard though is it. 4-4-1-1 allows.

Joe Cole to play on the left. You can have Milner on the right to provide security and stability in the midfield. You have Barry holding, with Lampard because of Barry and Milner, allowed to get forward alot more and support like he can for Chelsea.

Gerrard is then in his best position and if he then plays crap, then you pick other players. Rooney is then in his best position, upfront on his own where he wants to be.

I'd never exclude dropping Rooney, Gerrard for this country but don't you find it stupid how you don't even give them a chance in their best positions. At least play them in the best positions first and give them the chance to show why they should be playing before picking other players.

If Gerrard, Lampard, Rooney all played in their best position against Slovenia, we were terrible, they were terrible but we scraped through, then of course you have to simply look at it and say these players especially Lampard and Gerrard simply don't do it for us on this stage, Rooney to be fair to him has been consistantly one of our best players since breaking through. All I'm saying is, GIVE THE BEST PLAYERS A CHANCE TO PLAY IN THE BEST POSITIONS.

If the players played in the positions they do for the clubs then they'd probably be a little better. Johnson, Terry, Cole, Barry, Lampard, Gerrard, Rooney. So all your supposedly key men in a team, all regularly play 4-5-1/4-3-3/4-2-3-1 type formations for their clubs. Yet for England, they all play 4-4-2. Perhaps if Capello played the formation that these players obviously understand and perform better in, we wouldn't have the problem of the team being unbalanced and players not playing to their best abilities?

I do understand your arguement for best players in best positions, but I just dont think Gerrard is one of our best players. I think the media are afraid to criticise him and gets praise and escapes criticism where others wouldnt.

Just one we will have to agree to disagreeI think.

Rooney, I agree with - we need to get the best out of him, but he needs to grow up abit first tbh. I thought his attitude was appalling the other night and I dont think its right to give him what he wants just because he spat the dummy out

[jonno_2004]

That isn't too bad at all as long as Defoe is in the supporting role rather than the furtherst forward. If he is though, has to be the question, why not just Joe Cole for for example and Gerrard behind Rooney rather than Defoe.

It sounds promising at least though. Let's get Rooney in the box scoring goals instead of 40 yards from the opponent goal.

What's the point of Defoe in the supporting role; he's a poacher and nothing more. The thing about Rooney is that when he is on form he can collect the ball 40 yards from goal and still be deadly.

[kurtsimonw]

Defoe should start in the same position as the last two games.

[BOF]

Defoe should start in the same position as the last two games.

Indeed. Given that they're not playing someone like Jamaica.

[kurtsimonw]

I'd be worried for the fans if he played. A hit and hope player like Defoe with that ball?

[Hanky]

Yet you'd leave Rooney out who has done more than all of them on his own but is being played out of position?

He isn't. He is playing up front in his favoured position. It can simply be up to him on where to place himself up front as Capello will probably jump through hoops to make him happy and get him playing his best.

[Woodytom]

Defoe should start in the same position as the last two games.

Indeed. Given that they're not playing someone like Jamaica.

Not far off tho

[AVFC-Prideofbrum]

Yet you'd leave Rooney out who has done more than all of them on his own but is being played out of position?

He isn't. He is playing up front in his favoured position. It can simply be up to him on where to place himself up front as Capello will probably jump through hoops to make him happy and get him playing his best.

Well obviously not. Capello for starters is detailed in his plans. I really doubt he's just gone "play how you want"...

Rooney has always said that he prefers playing up top as last man but for England he has to play in the hole more. So surely if it was Rooney's choice....he'd

1. first say in interviews that he can play either way.

2. Actually play as the main man because that's what he prefers.

Heskey plays deeper for Villa and more up top for England, that is tactical, not on what the players prefer.

If Capello really wanted to bring the best out of rooney, he'd play him as a lone front man....as that's what Rooney plays and wants to play.

[AVFC-Prideofbrum]

That isn't too bad at all as long as Defoe is in the supporting role rather than the furtherst forward. If he is though, has to be the question, why not just Joe Cole for for example and Gerrard behind Rooney rather than Defoe.

It sounds promising at least though. Let's get Rooney in the box scoring goals instead of 40 yards from the opponent goal.

What's the point of Defoe in the supporting role; he's a poacher and nothing more. The thing about Rooney is that when he is on form he can collect the ball 40 yards from goal and still be deadly.

Yes but he's not. I'm sorry but I just don't get it.

Why would you want Rooney not playing as he's used too fit in Defoe. When can just play Gerrard and Rooney both in their best positions as a pair.

[Hanky]

Yet you'd leave Rooney out who has done more than all of them on his own but is being played out of position?

He isn't. He is playing up front in his favoured position. It can simply be up to him on where to place himself up front as Capello will probably jump through hoops to make him happy and get him playing his best.

Well obviously not. Capello for starters is detailed in his plans. I really doubt he's just gone "play how you want"...

Rooney has always said that he prefers playing up top as last man but for England he has to play in the hole more. So surely if it was Rooney's choice....he'd

1. first say in interviews that he can play either way.

2. Actually play as the main man because that's what he prefers.

Heskey plays deeper for Villa and more up top for England, that is tactical, not on what the players prefer.

If Capello really wanted to bring the best out of rooney, he'd play him as a lone front man....as that's what Rooney plays and wants to play.

If Rooney can't play well in the position Capello has asked him to (up front), he really isn't that good then.

Anyway his ball retention was simply awful against Algeria, hopefully he can be on song tomorrow,

[will87]

Doesn't matter where Rooney plays if he can't control simple 10-yard passes, he looked more like Marlon Harewood the other day, shockingly bad.

[PompeyVillan]

To persist with the current setup would be mad. It's not working.

Personally, I've come around to the idea that it's the bloody players fault after watching a bit of the Algeria game back. They were getting the basic things wrong. Okay, play Gerrard more centrally. But otherwise...

I dunno. I think the 'golden generation' are all big time bottlers who are too worried about ruining their own reputations to truly give it all for England and fail. There is always a convenient excuse with England- the manager. Never the players.

[AVFC-Prideofbrum]

Yet you'd leave Rooney out who has done more than all of them on his own but is being played out of position?

He isn't. He is playing up front in his favoured position. It can simply be up to him on where to place himself up front as Capello will probably jump through hoops to make him happy and get him playing his best.

Well obviously not. Capello for starters is detailed in his plans. I really doubt he's just gone "play how you want"...

Rooney has always said that he prefers playing up top as last man but for England he has to play in the hole more. So surely if it was Rooney's choice....he'd

1. first say in interviews that he can play either way.

2. Actually play as the main man because that's what he prefers.

Heskey plays deeper for Villa and more up top for England, that is tactical, not on what the players prefer.

If Capello really wanted to bring the best out of rooney, he'd play him as a lone front man....as that's what Rooney plays and wants to play.

If Rooney can't play well in the position Capello has asked him to (up front), he really isn't that good then.

Anyway his ball retention was simply awful against Algeria, hopefully he can be on song tomorrow,

Well, he was dreadful against Algeria, I'm not putting that down to position although being fustrated can have a big effect. I accept he had a shit game and would of even if upfront. One thing I will say is though, for Man United, there were times he looked quite poor and still managed to score a goal because he was in the box. My point is, even if he is on form, you want him in the box, on the end of crosses, on the end of chances, in the box. Not trying to create the chances or shooting from distance.

I'm pretty sure out of about 34 goals was it he scored for Man United, I can't think of really probably more than 2/3 outside the box? (I can't think of any but there is probably a couple)...alot were headed goals and poaching goals. That's where you want him. We need to start accepting him as the goalscorer now, not the number 10. he used to be ....people only started considering him world class this year, upfront...as a main man not a number 10. so what little world class talents we have, let's use them to full effect. Because when he is shit, we're not over-reliant on him because the touches he does have will be more around the goal and finishing rather than in the build up play too. Will give us more fluidity even if he's having a bad game.

[AVFC-Prideofbrum]

I feel the problem is, at the moment, our attacks are starting with Wayne Rooney and not ending with him. We need Rooney on the end of things, people like Gerrard, Joe Cole, Lampard the one's to give the service.

[villan83]

To persist with the current setup would be mad. It's not working.

Personally, I've come around to the idea that it's the bloody players fault after watching a bit of the Algeria game back. They were getting the basic things wrong. Okay, play Gerrard more centrally. But otherwise...

I dunno. I think the 'golden generation' are all big time bottlers who are too worried about ruining their own reputations to truly give it all for England and fail. There is always a convenient excuse with England- the manager. Never the players.

This!!

I know McClaren had other faults but one of the main accusations against him was that he was too friendly with the players. Now Capello is being accused of being too strict with them. The manager can't win with this lot.

[ml1dch]

That isn't too bad at all as long as Defoe is in the supporting role rather than the furtherst forward. If he is though, has to be the question, why not just Joe Cole for for example and Gerrard behind Rooney rather than Defoe

How about because the likes of Milner and Defoe are coming off very successful seasons and the likes of Gerrard and Joe Cole are coming off very mediocre seasons?

Unless of course you'd rather pick the team based on reputation rather than based on form.