Zatman Posted June 22, 2010 Share Posted June 22, 2010 Fernando Torres - yes These are players who have or are stepping up to the plate on a world stage. Not a premiership stage!! You reckon? One goal against Germany a couple of years ago aside, I'm not sure what else he has done. Apart from keep nice and cool in David Villa's shadow. Thort he got a couple of goals in 2006?? Mite be mistaken He only got 2 i think against Ukraine and Tunisia. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uncy_chris Posted June 22, 2010 Share Posted June 22, 2010 Good players should be able to play well in whatever position you put them in. Jimmy Milner will do a job in goal if you ask him to, so Gerrard or Lampard should be able to shuffle about midfield a bit and still put in a shift! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AVFC-Prideofbrum Posted June 22, 2010 Share Posted June 22, 2010 TalkSport just saying Heskey and Lennon dropped, Defoe and Milner playing instead, like for like swaps. How can Talksport know this when Fabio himself said yesterday that he wouldn't be changing timing of the announcement of the team? Becuase of what happens in training. Doesn't make any sense. Players complaining that they never know what the team is until 2 hours before a game, Capello says that's how it is and it's not going to change but Talksport know the line-up 28 hours before a game based on a closed training session (apart from the first 10 minutes of warming-up)? This is Talksport, remember and as such, this has to be no more than speculation. My answer was a guess sorry and sounds wrong if training is behind closed doors. I've no clue then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodytom Posted June 22, 2010 Share Posted June 22, 2010 So? He's still a world class player even if he did have a fairly poor season. Look at the Liverpool team too, don't help your own season when there is club termoil, your playing alongside players like Lucas, the team around you is doing shit, your favourite player alongside you Torres is out for most of the season. He gets back to International duty to then be stuck out of position. Play Gerrard with N'gog, play Gerrard with Torres, there different players. Play Gerrard with Rooney, you will a see different player. They are very good friends and understanding between them is very good and it's potentially a great partnership. No he is not a world class player. Forlan - Yes Felipe Melo - yes David Villa - Yes Fernando Torres - yes Messi - Yes Ronaldo - Yes Even the lad at Chile These are players who have or are stepping up to the plate on a world stage. Not a premiership stage!! Steven Gerrard has had plenty of opportunities in his favoured position, and plenty of opportunities to show us just how good he is. Whether your playing right back or left midfield, you should (if your a world class player) be able to put at least 1 decent corner in the box. At the moment - no player in the England squad is grabbing it by the scruff of the neck like Beckham and Hargreaves have done. No he hasn't WTF. I'm not even a huge Gerrard fan, I think he's a great player though. Name me how many times he's played CF behind a striker for England!?!?!? I doubt you could count 5 occasions in the what 82 caps he has!!! The only positions he's played was he started as a more defensive minded midfielder. under Sven, him and Lampard played together, Gerrard more defensive. When Capello came in, Gerrard's always pretty much played from left midfield. He hasn't had any games under Capello in his proper position has he!? POB - If you can give me one good reason why we should build the team around Steven Gerrard then Il give you this debate. People say Milner struggled againgst USA, which he did to be fair, but in theory (altho footy is not that simple) its all gone downhill since Milner went off. But what James Milner gives you is discipline in terms of position. With James Milner on the left we use the full width of the pitch which obviously creates space in the centre - like the goal we scored against USA. Gerrard on the other hand goes trotting inwards and causes absolute chaos and its plane to see. A world class player who was asked to play left midfield, would play left midfield imo. The guy is to keen, and just ends up getting in the way. He has shown nothing in 82 caps or since 2006 for Liverpool that suggests he should be our star man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Posted June 22, 2010 Share Posted June 22, 2010 It's hardly being arrogant to say that England will qualify comfortably. I'd say that was quite an arrogant attitude, yes. It isn't Jon. ahem. :oops: "qualify comfortably"? ps. I really, really hope we win tomorrow, and get through the group. But "comfortable qualification" it most certainly will not have been, if we do make it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AVFC-Prideofbrum Posted June 22, 2010 Share Posted June 22, 2010 So? He's still a world class player even if he did have a fairly poor season. Look at the Liverpool team too, don't help your own season when there is club termoil, your playing alongside players like Lucas, the team around you is doing shit, your favourite player alongside you Torres is out for most of the season. He gets back to International duty to then be stuck out of position. Play Gerrard with N'gog, play Gerrard with Torres, there different players. Play Gerrard with Rooney, you will a see different player. They are very good friends and understanding between them is very good and it's potentially a great partnership. No he is not a world class player. Forlan - Yes Felipe Melo - yes David Villa - Yes Fernando Torres - yes Messi - Yes Ronaldo - Yes Even the lad at Chile These are players who have or are stepping up to the plate on a world stage. Not a premiership stage!! Steven Gerrard has had plenty of opportunities in his favoured position, and plenty of opportunities to show us just how good he is. Whether your playing right back or left midfield, you should (if your a world class player) be able to put at least 1 decent corner in the box. At the moment - no player in the England squad is grabbing it by the scruff of the neck like Beckham and Hargreaves have done. No he hasn't WTF. I'm not even a huge Gerrard fan, I think he's a great player though. Name me how many times he's played CF behind a striker for England!?!?!? I doubt you could count 5 occasions in the what 82 caps he has!!! The only positions he's played was he started as a more defensive minded midfielder. under Sven, him and Lampard played together, Gerrard more defensive. When Capello came in, Gerrard's always pretty much played from left midfield. He hasn't had any games under Capello in his proper position has he!? POB - If you can give me one good reason why we should build the team around Steven Gerrard then Il give you this debate. People say Milner struggled againgst USA, which he did to be fair, but in theory (altho footy is not that simple) its all gone downhill since Milner went off. But what James Milner gives you is discipline in terms of position. With James Milner on the left we use the full width of the pitch which obviously creates space in the centre - like the goal we scored against USA. Gerrard on the other hand goes trotting inwards and causes absolute chaos and its plane to see. A world class player who was asked to play left midfield, would play left midfield imo. The guy is to keen, and just ends up getting in the way. He has shown nothing in 82 caps or since 2006 for Liverpool that suggests he should be our star man Well did you see who also scored the goals, through the centre. Yeah, Steven Gerrard, exactly where he should be. I'm not denying he moves from his position but that's most likely what's been asked of him. To come off his wing and have freedom to move inside but the main problem is, defensively he's limited to the left which means when your on the break or generally, he has to maintain his position and can't simply just pick up space centrally all the time which he should be doing. Yeah, Capello could ask him to stay on the left and then what? who's going to be creating, Lampard? who has a worse record than Gerrard at international level in terms of performances. Yeah, play Milner on the left, give you stability and discipline, but then for God sake, just let Gerrard play for Rooney. I DON'T GET WHAT YOU ARE ARGUING!?!??!?! Are you saying, playing Rooney and Gerrard out of position is a better option just so Defoe or Heskey can play!? Because that's what it is. You are sacraficing, Rooney, Gerrard in their best position, you are sacrifcing the team itself and balance by putting Gerrard on the left who doesn't give you stability like you said. Just so Heskey or Defoe can lead the line. THAT'S THE POINT. A change of formation, you can go. Milner one side, Joe Cole the other side. Barry Lampard Gerrard through the centre. Let Gerrard and Lampard fully support Rooney and let Rooney lead the line on his own like he did this season where he had his greatest season. It's not rocket science. Oh and as for Gerrard not doing anything since 2006 for Liverpool. WTF. :? He's been continually their best player apart from last season. In 07-08 and 08-09. He scored: 45 goals in 96 matches from Just behind a striker!! Then 32 assists as well and in the 96 matches. He assisted or scored 77 goals. Last year he was poor and still managed 12 in 46 from playing off a striker, it's hardly that bad is it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DelboyVilla Posted June 22, 2010 Share Posted June 22, 2010 But if you have world class players why would you want to play them out of position in the first place to accommodate mediorce premier league players like, heskey, defoe, lennon, barry etc we have 4 players who I would put in the top 20 players in the world, rooney, gerrard, lampard and ash cole. We should build our team around them not around barry, heskey and swp. Even Maradonna wouldn't play messi out of position or queiros play ronaldo at right back (though MON probably would? ) And I still can't understand why JT is not captain as he is the only natural leader in the squad (Oh wait a minute, what was that you said John?) Like Sven, Capello has no idea when it comes to changing a system during a match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodytom Posted June 22, 2010 Share Posted June 22, 2010 So? He's still a world class player even if he did have a fairly poor season. Look at the Liverpool team too, don't help your own season when there is club termoil, your playing alongside players like Lucas, the team around you is doing shit, your favourite player alongside you Torres is out for most of the season. He gets back to International duty to then be stuck out of position. Play Gerrard with N'gog, play Gerrard with Torres, there different players. Play Gerrard with Rooney, you will a see different player. They are very good friends and understanding between them is very good and it's potentially a great partnership. No he is not a world class player. Forlan - Yes Felipe Melo - yes David Villa - Yes Fernando Torres - yes Messi - Yes Ronaldo - Yes Even the lad at Chile These are players who have or are stepping up to the plate on a world stage. Not a premiership stage!! Steven Gerrard has had plenty of opportunities in his favoured position, and plenty of opportunities to show us just how good he is. Whether your playing right back or left midfield, you should (if your a world class player) be able to put at least 1 decent corner in the box. At the moment - no player in the England squad is grabbing it by the scruff of the neck like Beckham and Hargreaves have done. No he hasn't WTF. I'm not even a huge Gerrard fan, I think he's a great player though. Name me how many times he's played CF behind a striker for England!?!?!? I doubt you could count 5 occasions in the what 82 caps he has!!! The only positions he's played was he started as a more defensive minded midfielder. under Sven, him and Lampard played together, Gerrard more defensive. When Capello came in, Gerrard's always pretty much played from left midfield. He hasn't had any games under Capello in his proper position has he!? POB - If you can give me one good reason why we should build the team around Steven Gerrard then Il give you this debate. People say Milner struggled againgst USA, which he did to be fair, but in theory (altho footy is not that simple) its all gone downhill since Milner went off. But what James Milner gives you is discipline in terms of position. With James Milner on the left we use the full width of the pitch which obviously creates space in the centre - like the goal we scored against USA. Gerrard on the other hand goes trotting inwards and causes absolute chaos and its plane to see. A world class player who was asked to play left midfield, would play left midfield imo. The guy is to keen, and just ends up getting in the way. He has shown nothing in 82 caps or since 2006 for Liverpool that suggests he should be our star man Well did you see who also scored the goals, through the centre. Yeah, Steven Gerrard, exactly where he should be. I'm not denying he moves from his position but that's most likely what's been asked of him. To come off his wing and have freedom to move inside but the main problem is, defensively he's limited to the left which means when your on the break or generally, he has to maintain his position and can't simply just pick up space centrally all the time which he should be doing. Yeah, Capello could ask him to stay on the left and then what? who's going to be creating, Lampard? who has a worse record than Gerrard at international level in terms of performances. Yeah, play Milner on the left, give you stability and discipline, but then for God sake, just let Gerrard play for Rooney. I DON'T GET WHAT YOU ARE ARGUING!?!??!?! Are you saying, playing Rooney and Gerrard out of position is a better option just so Defoe or Heskey can play!? Because that's what it is. You are sacraficing, Rooney, Gerrard in their best position, you are sacrifcing the team itself and balance by putting Gerrard on the left who doesn't give you stability like you said. Just so Heskey or Defoe can lead the line. THAT'S THE POINT. A change of formation, you can go. Milner one side, Joe Cole the other side. Barry Lampard Gerrard through the centre. Let Gerrard and Lampard fully support Rooney and let Rooney lead the line on his own like he did this season where he had his greatest season. It's not rocket science. My point is simple really - There are no excuses for such an embarrasing performance, and no system in the world will make up for the lack of desire, heart, passion, mental toughness, fitness, (and most importantly) skill, that was evident on Friday night. And instead of blaming our manager - we should be looking at our 'big time players' who we are told are brilliant each week. To be fair to Steven Gerrard, he said this after the match - but what else could he say. Lets just string 3 passes together and get a corner past the 1st man before we start criticising the managers system. The players were to blame on Friday night - NOT the manager Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AVFC-Prideofbrum Posted June 22, 2010 Share Posted June 22, 2010 So? He's still a world class player even if he did have a fairly poor season. Look at the Liverpool team too, don't help your own season when there is club termoil, your playing alongside players like Lucas, the team around you is doing shit, your favourite player alongside you Torres is out for most of the season. He gets back to International duty to then be stuck out of position. Play Gerrard with N'gog, play Gerrard with Torres, there different players. Play Gerrard with Rooney, you will a see different player. They are very good friends and understanding between them is very good and it's potentially a great partnership. No he is not a world class player. Forlan - Yes Felipe Melo - yes David Villa - Yes Fernando Torres - yes Messi - Yes Ronaldo - Yes Even the lad at Chile These are players who have or are stepping up to the plate on a world stage. Not a premiership stage!! Steven Gerrard has had plenty of opportunities in his favoured position, and plenty of opportunities to show us just how good he is. Whether your playing right back or left midfield, you should (if your a world class player) be able to put at least 1 decent corner in the box. At the moment - no player in the England squad is grabbing it by the scruff of the neck like Beckham and Hargreaves have done. No he hasn't WTF. I'm not even a huge Gerrard fan, I think he's a great player though. Name me how many times he's played CF behind a striker for England!?!?!? I doubt you could count 5 occasions in the what 82 caps he has!!! The only positions he's played was he started as a more defensive minded midfielder. under Sven, him and Lampard played together, Gerrard more defensive. When Capello came in, Gerrard's always pretty much played from left midfield. He hasn't had any games under Capello in his proper position has he!? POB - If you can give me one good reason why we should build the team around Steven Gerrard then Il give you this debate. People say Milner struggled againgst USA, which he did to be fair, but in theory (altho footy is not that simple) its all gone downhill since Milner went off. But what James Milner gives you is discipline in terms of position. With James Milner on the left we use the full width of the pitch which obviously creates space in the centre - like the goal we scored against USA. Gerrard on the other hand goes trotting inwards and causes absolute chaos and its plane to see. A world class player who was asked to play left midfield, would play left midfield imo. The guy is to keen, and just ends up getting in the way. He has shown nothing in 82 caps or since 2006 for Liverpool that suggests he should be our star man Well did you see who also scored the goals, through the centre. Yeah, Steven Gerrard, exactly where he should be. I'm not denying he moves from his position but that's most likely what's been asked of him. To come off his wing and have freedom to move inside but the main problem is, defensively he's limited to the left which means when your on the break or generally, he has to maintain his position and can't simply just pick up space centrally all the time which he should be doing. Yeah, Capello could ask him to stay on the left and then what? who's going to be creating, Lampard? who has a worse record than Gerrard at international level in terms of performances. Yeah, play Milner on the left, give you stability and discipline, but then for God sake, just let Gerrard play for Rooney. I DON'T GET WHAT YOU ARE ARGUING!?!??!?! Are you saying, playing Rooney and Gerrard out of position is a better option just so Defoe or Heskey can play!? Because that's what it is. You are sacraficing, Rooney, Gerrard in their best position, you are sacrifcing the team itself and balance by putting Gerrard on the left who doesn't give you stability like you said. Just so Heskey or Defoe can lead the line. THAT'S THE POINT. A change of formation, you can go. Milner one side, Joe Cole the other side. Barry Lampard Gerrard through the centre. Let Gerrard and Lampard fully support Rooney and let Rooney lead the line on his own like he did this season where he had his greatest season. It's not rocket science. My point is simple really - There are no excuses for such an embarrasing performance, and no system in the world will make up for the lack of desire, heart, passion, mental toughness, fitness, (and most importantly) skill, that was evident on Friday night. And instead of blaming our manager - we should be looking at our 'big time players' who we are told are brilliant each week. To be fair to Steven Gerrard, he said this after the match - but what else could he say. Lets just string 3 passes together and get a corner past the 1st man before we start criticising the managers system. The players were to blame on Friday night - NOT the manager Yes, I don't think anyone is saying that the players aren't at fault by something but this is international level too, you can't just expect to field a team of players out of position, unbalanced and win because the players are better. If the players were put into the right positions, you'd have absolutely no arguement about the manager and it is then down to the players. Player's confidence, happiness, freedom can be taken away if players are out of position. Rooney for example says in interviews how he'd like to play on his own upfront, he's good friends with Stevie G, then in the game, he's asked to drop deep, he gets fustrated, his game loses confidence, he gets aggressive and his performance drops. Surely going to the likes of Rooney, Gerrard like Robson did in 1990, "okay, i'll give you what you want, here you are...Gerrard behind Rooney, Cole in...prove yourselves right"....surely that'll only lift those players to up their game just to show that's what they want. Telling the players he's going to do exactly the same, keep it the exact same, just shows complete lack of faith in the players IMO and shows he's afriad to listen and take into account what they think. it'll only de-motivate the players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodytom Posted June 22, 2010 Share Posted June 22, 2010 But if you have world class players why would you want to play them out of position in the first place to accommodate mediorce premier league players like, heskey, defoe, lennon, barry etc we have 4 players who I would put in the top 20 players in the world, rooney, gerrard, lampard and ash cole. We should build our team around them not around barry, heskey and swp. Even Maradonna wouldn't play messi out of position or queiros play ronaldo at right back (though MON probably would? ) And I still can't understand why JT is not captain as he is the only natural leader in the squad (Oh wait a minute, what was that you said John?) Like Sven, Capello has no idea when it comes to changing a system during a match. Not done too bad to say hes got no idea. The pair of them infact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodytom Posted June 22, 2010 Share Posted June 22, 2010 So? He's still a world class player even if he did have a fairly poor season. Look at the Liverpool team too, don't help your own season when there is club termoil, your playing alongside players like Lucas, the team around you is doing shit, your favourite player alongside you Torres is out for most of the season. He gets back to International duty to then be stuck out of position. Play Gerrard with N'gog, play Gerrard with Torres, there different players. Play Gerrard with Rooney, you will a see different player. They are very good friends and understanding between them is very good and it's potentially a great partnership. No he is not a world class player. Forlan - Yes Felipe Melo - yes David Villa - Yes Fernando Torres - yes Messi - Yes Ronaldo - Yes Even the lad at Chile These are players who have or are stepping up to the plate on a world stage. Not a premiership stage!! Steven Gerrard has had plenty of opportunities in his favoured position, and plenty of opportunities to show us just how good he is. Whether your playing right back or left midfield, you should (if your a world class player) be able to put at least 1 decent corner in the box. At the moment - no player in the England squad is grabbing it by the scruff of the neck like Beckham and Hargreaves have done. No he hasn't WTF. I'm not even a huge Gerrard fan, I think he's a great player though. Name me how many times he's played CF behind a striker for England!?!?!? I doubt you could count 5 occasions in the what 82 caps he has!!! The only positions he's played was he started as a more defensive minded midfielder. under Sven, him and Lampard played together, Gerrard more defensive. When Capello came in, Gerrard's always pretty much played from left midfield. He hasn't had any games under Capello in his proper position has he!? POB - If you can give me one good reason why we should build the team around Steven Gerrard then Il give you this debate. People say Milner struggled againgst USA, which he did to be fair, but in theory (altho footy is not that simple) its all gone downhill since Milner went off. But what James Milner gives you is discipline in terms of position. With James Milner on the left we use the full width of the pitch which obviously creates space in the centre - like the goal we scored against USA. Gerrard on the other hand goes trotting inwards and causes absolute chaos and its plane to see. A world class player who was asked to play left midfield, would play left midfield imo. The guy is to keen, and just ends up getting in the way. He has shown nothing in 82 caps or since 2006 for Liverpool that suggests he should be our star man Well did you see who also scored the goals, through the centre. Yeah, Steven Gerrard, exactly where he should be. I'm not denying he moves from his position but that's most likely what's been asked of him. To come off his wing and have freedom to move inside but the main problem is, defensively he's limited to the left which means when your on the break or generally, he has to maintain his position and can't simply just pick up space centrally all the time which he should be doing. Yeah, Capello could ask him to stay on the left and then what? who's going to be creating, Lampard? who has a worse record than Gerrard at international level in terms of performances. Yeah, play Milner on the left, give you stability and discipline, but then for God sake, just let Gerrard play for Rooney. I DON'T GET WHAT YOU ARE ARGUING!?!??!?! Are you saying, playing Rooney and Gerrard out of position is a better option just so Defoe or Heskey can play!? Because that's what it is. You are sacraficing, Rooney, Gerrard in their best position, you are sacrifcing the team itself and balance by putting Gerrard on the left who doesn't give you stability like you said. Just so Heskey or Defoe can lead the line. THAT'S THE POINT. A change of formation, you can go. Milner one side, Joe Cole the other side. Barry Lampard Gerrard through the centre. Let Gerrard and Lampard fully support Rooney and let Rooney lead the line on his own like he did this season where he had his greatest season. It's not rocket science. My point is simple really - There are no excuses for such an embarrasing performance, and no system in the world will make up for the lack of desire, heart, passion, mental toughness, fitness, (and most importantly) skill, that was evident on Friday night. And instead of blaming our manager - we should be looking at our 'big time players' who we are told are brilliant each week. To be fair to Steven Gerrard, he said this after the match - but what else could he say. Lets just string 3 passes together and get a corner past the 1st man before we start criticising the managers system. The players were to blame on Friday night - NOT the manager Yes, I don't think anyone is saying that the players aren't at fault by something but this is international level too, you can't just expect to field a team of players out of position, unbalanced and win because the players are better. If the players were put into the right positions, you'd have absolutely no arguement about the manager and it is then down to the players. Player's confidence, happiness, freedom can be taken away if players are out of position. Rooney for example says in interviews how he'd like to play on his own upfront, he's good friends with Stevie G, then in the game, he's asked to drop deep, he gets fustrated, his game loses confidence, he gets aggressive and his performance drops. Surely going to the likes of Rooney, Gerrard like Robson did in 1990, "okay, i'll give you what you want, here you are...Gerrard behind Rooney, Cole in...prove yourselves right"....surely that'll only lift those players to up their game just to show that's what they want. Telling the players he's going to do exactly the same, keep it the exact same, just shows complete lack of faith in the players IMO and shows he's afriad to listen and take into account what they think. it'll only de-motivate the players. Oh I forgot. Silly me. I didnt realise it was about pleasing one player. world class players do what they are told imo and if Wayne Rooney cant get over the fact that he may have to player 2 yards deeper than what he prefers, (especially when playing shite teams) then he is by no means world class and is going down in my estimation very quickly. Like someone said above. World class players Adapt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AVFC-Prideofbrum Posted June 22, 2010 Share Posted June 22, 2010 So? He's still a world class player even if he did have a fairly poor season. Look at the Liverpool team too, don't help your own season when there is club termoil, your playing alongside players like Lucas, the team around you is doing shit, your favourite player alongside you Torres is out for most of the season. He gets back to International duty to then be stuck out of position. Play Gerrard with N'gog, play Gerrard with Torres, there different players. Play Gerrard with Rooney, you will a see different player. They are very good friends and understanding between them is very good and it's potentially a great partnership. No he is not a world class player. Forlan - Yes Felipe Melo - yes David Villa - Yes Fernando Torres - yes Messi - Yes Ronaldo - Yes Even the lad at Chile These are players who have or are stepping up to the plate on a world stage. Not a premiership stage!! Steven Gerrard has had plenty of opportunities in his favoured position, and plenty of opportunities to show us just how good he is. Whether your playing right back or left midfield, you should (if your a world class player) be able to put at least 1 decent corner in the box. At the moment - no player in the England squad is grabbing it by the scruff of the neck like Beckham and Hargreaves have done. No he hasn't WTF. I'm not even a huge Gerrard fan, I think he's a great player though. Name me how many times he's played CF behind a striker for England!?!?!? I doubt you could count 5 occasions in the what 82 caps he has!!! The only positions he's played was he started as a more defensive minded midfielder. under Sven, him and Lampard played together, Gerrard more defensive. When Capello came in, Gerrard's always pretty much played from left midfield. He hasn't had any games under Capello in his proper position has he!? POB - If you can give me one good reason why we should build the team around Steven Gerrard then Il give you this debate. People say Milner struggled againgst USA, which he did to be fair, but in theory (altho footy is not that simple) its all gone downhill since Milner went off. But what James Milner gives you is discipline in terms of position. With James Milner on the left we use the full width of the pitch which obviously creates space in the centre - like the goal we scored against USA. Gerrard on the other hand goes trotting inwards and causes absolute chaos and its plane to see. A world class player who was asked to play left midfield, would play left midfield imo. The guy is to keen, and just ends up getting in the way. He has shown nothing in 82 caps or since 2006 for Liverpool that suggests he should be our star man Well did you see who also scored the goals, through the centre. Yeah, Steven Gerrard, exactly where he should be. I'm not denying he moves from his position but that's most likely what's been asked of him. To come off his wing and have freedom to move inside but the main problem is, defensively he's limited to the left which means when your on the break or generally, he has to maintain his position and can't simply just pick up space centrally all the time which he should be doing. Yeah, Capello could ask him to stay on the left and then what? who's going to be creating, Lampard? who has a worse record than Gerrard at international level in terms of performances. Yeah, play Milner on the left, give you stability and discipline, but then for God sake, just let Gerrard play for Rooney. I DON'T GET WHAT YOU ARE ARGUING!?!??!?! Are you saying, playing Rooney and Gerrard out of position is a better option just so Defoe or Heskey can play!? Because that's what it is. You are sacraficing, Rooney, Gerrard in their best position, you are sacrifcing the team itself and balance by putting Gerrard on the left who doesn't give you stability like you said. Just so Heskey or Defoe can lead the line. THAT'S THE POINT. A change of formation, you can go. Milner one side, Joe Cole the other side. Barry Lampard Gerrard through the centre. Let Gerrard and Lampard fully support Rooney and let Rooney lead the line on his own like he did this season where he had his greatest season. It's not rocket science. My point is simple really - There are no excuses for such an embarrasing performance, and no system in the world will make up for the lack of desire, heart, passion, mental toughness, fitness, (and most importantly) skill, that was evident on Friday night. And instead of blaming our manager - we should be looking at our 'big time players' who we are told are brilliant each week. To be fair to Steven Gerrard, he said this after the match - but what else could he say. Lets just string 3 passes together and get a corner past the 1st man before we start criticising the managers system. The players were to blame on Friday night - NOT the manager Yes, I don't think anyone is saying that the players aren't at fault by something but this is international level too, you can't just expect to field a team of players out of position, unbalanced and win because the players are better. If the players were put into the right positions, you'd have absolutely no arguement about the manager and it is then down to the players. Player's confidence, happiness, freedom can be taken away if players are out of position. Rooney for example says in interviews how he'd like to play on his own upfront, he's good friends with Stevie G, then in the game, he's asked to drop deep, he gets fustrated, his game loses confidence, he gets aggressive and his performance drops. Surely going to the likes of Rooney, Gerrard like Robson did in 1990, "okay, i'll give you what you want, here you are...Gerrard behind Rooney, Cole in...prove yourselves right"....surely that'll only lift those players to up their game just to show that's what they want. Telling the players he's going to do exactly the same, keep it the exact same, just shows complete lack of faith in the players IMO and shows he's afriad to listen and take into account what they think. it'll only de-motivate the players. Oh I forgot. Silly me. I didnt realise it was about pleasing one player. world class players do what they are told imo and if Wayne Rooney cant get over the fact that he may have to player 2 yards deeper than what he prefers, (especially when playing shite teams) then he is by no means world class and is going down in my estimation very quickly. Like someone said above. World class players Adapt. Well it's not about pleasing one player is it? Gerrard, Rooney, Terry and I'd suspect a few more seem fustrated that the team aren't playing their potentially best team. Gerrard and Rooney can't understand while they can't play together and Terry is fustrated Cole isn't playing when he's always our most creative player. Yeah because that's all that Capello is asking, 2 yards deeper. It's a whole different role just like defensive midfield and attacking midfield is. My arse to that, tell Xavi to play right midfield and then expect him to control a game. Ask Messi to play left midfield and a disciplined role and see if you get the same player. Ask Ronaldo to play a disciplined role on the wing, i.e. working forward and back constantly. See what happens, of course they will respect their managers decisions and do what they are told, just like Rooney and Gerrard DO! It's the fact it's not getting the best out of them. You contradict yourself when you say, it's the players faults and then basically say, it shouldn't matter where they play. Yet if the team decide the results on the pitch then surely playing the best team wins you matches? I don't even get your point. Can I ask you a question? What would you do? Are you saying sacrifice the qualities of Gerrard, Lampard, Rooney, Joe Cole so Wright Phillips, Defoe/Heskey can play? Because that's basically the arguement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AVFC-Prideofbrum Posted June 22, 2010 Share Posted June 22, 2010 And thinking, yes. A manager's job is exactly that, pleasing players. You sacrafice the qualities, confidence and happiness of players like Gerrard and Rooney for England just to fit in the likes of Heskey/Defoe/SWP and your hardly going to be successful are you? All the best players in the world and the best performances in the world come from players playing in their positions, knowing what they do. You see Xavi control a game from the centre of midfield. You see Fabiano upfront on his own, smash in two goals, you see Messi finding space in the hole and just causing havoc. You see Higuain do what he's done best all season, score goals. Then you see England and see Rooney basically asked to play behind a striker when he should be upfront like Fabiano, like Higuain scoring goals like they have done all season. If we had another world class striker like say Drogba, then you can accept that Rooney has to drop a little deeper because a player of great quality can play his position too, but the fact is, we don't have anyone of great quality playing in his position. It's just pointless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodytom Posted June 22, 2010 Share Posted June 22, 2010 So? He's still a world class player even if he did have a fairly poor season. Look at the Liverpool team too, don't help your own season when there is club termoil, your playing alongside players like Lucas, the team around you is doing shit, your favourite player alongside you Torres is out for most of the season. He gets back to International duty to then be stuck out of position. Play Gerrard with N'gog, play Gerrard with Torres, there different players. Play Gerrard with Rooney, you will a see different player. They are very good friends and understanding between them is very good and it's potentially a great partnership. No he is not a world class player. Forlan - Yes Felipe Melo - yes David Villa - Yes Fernando Torres - yes Messi - Yes Ronaldo - Yes Even the lad at Chile These are players who have or are stepping up to the plate on a world stage. Not a premiership stage!! Steven Gerrard has had plenty of opportunities in his favoured position, and plenty of opportunities to show us just how good he is. Whether your playing right back or left midfield, you should (if your a world class player) be able to put at least 1 decent corner in the box. At the moment - no player in the England squad is grabbing it by the scruff of the neck like Beckham and Hargreaves have done. No he hasn't WTF. I'm not even a huge Gerrard fan, I think he's a great player though. Name me how many times he's played CF behind a striker for England!?!?!? I doubt you could count 5 occasions in the what 82 caps he has!!! The only positions he's played was he started as a more defensive minded midfielder. under Sven, him and Lampard played together, Gerrard more defensive. When Capello came in, Gerrard's always pretty much played from left midfield. He hasn't had any games under Capello in his proper position has he!? POB - If you can give me one good reason why we should build the team around Steven Gerrard then Il give you this debate. People say Milner struggled againgst USA, which he did to be fair, but in theory (altho footy is not that simple) its all gone downhill since Milner went off. But what James Milner gives you is discipline in terms of position. With James Milner on the left we use the full width of the pitch which obviously creates space in the centre - like the goal we scored against USA. Gerrard on the other hand goes trotting inwards and causes absolute chaos and its plane to see. A world class player who was asked to play left midfield, would play left midfield imo. The guy is to keen, and just ends up getting in the way. He has shown nothing in 82 caps or since 2006 for Liverpool that suggests he should be our star man Well did you see who also scored the goals, through the centre. Yeah, Steven Gerrard, exactly where he should be. I'm not denying he moves from his position but that's most likely what's been asked of him. To come off his wing and have freedom to move inside but the main problem is, defensively he's limited to the left which means when your on the break or generally, he has to maintain his position and can't simply just pick up space centrally all the time which he should be doing. Yeah, Capello could ask him to stay on the left and then what? who's going to be creating, Lampard? who has a worse record than Gerrard at international level in terms of performances. Yeah, play Milner on the left, give you stability and discipline, but then for God sake, just let Gerrard play for Rooney. I DON'T GET WHAT YOU ARE ARGUING!?!??!?! Are you saying, playing Rooney and Gerrard out of position is a better option just so Defoe or Heskey can play!? Because that's what it is. You are sacraficing, Rooney, Gerrard in their best position, you are sacrifcing the team itself and balance by putting Gerrard on the left who doesn't give you stability like you said. Just so Heskey or Defoe can lead the line. THAT'S THE POINT. A change of formation, you can go. Milner one side, Joe Cole the other side. Barry Lampard Gerrard through the centre. Let Gerrard and Lampard fully support Rooney and let Rooney lead the line on his own like he did this season where he had his greatest season. It's not rocket science. My point is simple really - There are no excuses for such an embarrasing performance, and no system in the world will make up for the lack of desire, heart, passion, mental toughness, fitness, (and most importantly) skill, that was evident on Friday night. And instead of blaming our manager - we should be looking at our 'big time players' who we are told are brilliant each week. To be fair to Steven Gerrard, he said this after the match - but what else could he say. Lets just string 3 passes together and get a corner past the 1st man before we start criticising the managers system. The players were to blame on Friday night - NOT the manager Yes, I don't think anyone is saying that the players aren't at fault by something but this is international level too, you can't just expect to field a team of players out of position, unbalanced and win because the players are better. If the players were put into the right positions, you'd have absolutely no arguement about the manager and it is then down to the players. Player's confidence, happiness, freedom can be taken away if players are out of position. Rooney for example says in interviews how he'd like to play on his own upfront, he's good friends with Stevie G, then in the game, he's asked to drop deep, he gets fustrated, his game loses confidence, he gets aggressive and his performance drops. Surely going to the likes of Rooney, Gerrard like Robson did in 1990, "okay, i'll give you what you want, here you are...Gerrard behind Rooney, Cole in...prove yourselves right"....surely that'll only lift those players to up their game just to show that's what they want. Telling the players he's going to do exactly the same, keep it the exact same, just shows complete lack of faith in the players IMO and shows he's afriad to listen and take into account what they think. it'll only de-motivate the players. Oh I forgot. Silly me. I didnt realise it was about pleasing one player. world class players do what they are told imo and if Wayne Rooney cant get over the fact that he may have to player 2 yards deeper than what he prefers, (especially when playing shite teams) then he is by no means world class and is going down in my estimation very quickly. Like someone said above. World class players Adapt. Well it's not about pleasing one player is it? Gerrard, Rooney, Terry and I'd suspect a few more seem fustrated that the team aren't playing their potentially best team. Gerrard and Rooney can't understand while they can't play together and Terry is fustrated Cole isn't playing when he's always our most creative player. Yeah because that's all that Capello is asking, 2 yards deeper. It's a whole different role just like defensive midfield and attacking midfield is. My arse to that, tell Xavi to play right midfield and then expect him to control a game. Ask Messi to play left midfield and a disciplined role and see if you get the same player. Ask Ronaldo to play a disciplined role on the wing, i.e. working forward and back constantly. See what happens, of course they will respect their managers decisions and do what they are told, just like Rooney and Gerrard DO! It's the fact it's not getting the best out of them. You contradict yourself when you say, it's the players faults and then basically say, it shouldn't matter where they play. Yet if the team decide the results on the pitch then surely playing the best team wins you matches? I don't even get your point. Can I ask you a question? What would you do? Are you saying sacrifice the qualities of Gerrard, Lampard, Rooney, Joe Cole so Wright Phillips, Defoe/Heskey can play? Because that's basically the arguement. Yes and no, Id sacrifice them players for other players (not SWP) and Heskey (who Im a big fan of) was poor last game. The reason I would do that because I have no idea what the qualities of Gerrard and Lampard are when it comes to International. Ive seen nothing in 80 caps each! So I honestly believe it wouldnt do any harm. Rooney, I have seen qualities and would probably stick with, but only if he does as his told with the right attitude. My team would be next game would be James Johnson Terry Upson Cole Lennon (altho Id hesitate picking him cos he is way out of his depth) Milner Barry Joe cole Crouch Defoe They honestly cant do any worse than players who clearly dont want to play (and in all honestly dont appear that good when they do want to play) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodytom Posted June 22, 2010 Share Posted June 22, 2010 And thinking, yes. A manager's job is exactly that, pleasing players. You sacrafice the qualities, confidence and happiness of players like Gerrard and Rooney for England just to fit in the likes of Heskey/Defoe/SWP and your hardly going to be successful are you? All the best players in the world and the best performances in the world come from players playing in their positions, knowing what they do. You see Xavi control a game from the centre of midfield. You see Fabiano upfront on his own, smash in two goals, you see Messi finding space in the hole and just causing havoc. You see Higuain do what he's done best all season, score goals. Then you see England and see Rooney basically asked to play behind a striker when he should be upfront like Fabiano, like Higuain scoring goals like they have done all season. If we had another world class striker like say Drogba, then you can accept that Rooney has to drop a little deeper because a player of great quality can play his position too, but the fact is, we don't have anyone of great quality playing in his position. It's just pointless. All the players you mention are head and shoulders above Lampard and Gerrard. theyr not even in the same league. maybe thats why they dont play as good as Xavi, Messi, Iniesta etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AVFC-Prideofbrum Posted June 22, 2010 Share Posted June 22, 2010 Right, So you'd pick Defoe who has done absolutely **** all on the international stage. You'd pick Milner who is completly inexperienced and done **** all on the international stage and Lennon who has done **** all on the international stage. Yet you'd leave Rooney out who has done more than all of them on his own but is being played out of position? I know this sounds funny but how about just play players in their positions or at least the best players in their positions and see what happens I KNOW, I KNOW, It sounds daft, playing the best players in their best positions but sometimes it can work. I.e. -------Barry------- Milner--Lampard--- --------Gerrard---Cole ---------Rooney------. Milner in as you said to provide some discipline to allow Lampard, Gerrard, Cole to support. I don't get why you would drop all the best players simply because they are played out of position. Why don't you play the other players out of position. I simply don't see the arguement. Why not just put your best players in their best positions like they fit. Why put your average players in their best positions. Sorry but am I missing something here..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AVFC-Prideofbrum Posted June 22, 2010 Share Posted June 22, 2010 And thinking, yes. A manager's job is exactly that, pleasing players. You sacrafice the qualities, confidence and happiness of players like Gerrard and Rooney for England just to fit in the likes of Heskey/Defoe/SWP and your hardly going to be successful are you? All the best players in the world and the best performances in the world come from players playing in their positions, knowing what they do. You see Xavi control a game from the centre of midfield. You see Fabiano upfront on his own, smash in two goals, you see Messi finding space in the hole and just causing havoc. You see Higuain do what he's done best all season, score goals. Then you see England and see Rooney basically asked to play behind a striker when he should be upfront like Fabiano, like Higuain scoring goals like they have done all season. If we had another world class striker like say Drogba, then you can accept that Rooney has to drop a little deeper because a player of great quality can play his position too, but the fact is, we don't have anyone of great quality playing in his position. It's just pointless. All the players you mention are head and shoulders above Lampard and Gerrard. theyr not even in the same league. maybe thats why they dont play as good as Xavi, Messi, Iniesta etc THAT'S NOT THE POINT. THE POINT IS. THOSE PLAYERS PLAY IN THEIR POSITIONS FOR CLUB AND COUNTRY HENCE WHY THE PERFORM WELL FOR THEIR CLUB AND COUNTRY. If Gerrard actually played behind a striker, maybe he would be shit for England but how can you say it if he isn't given a chance there!?!? Put Xavi on the left for Spain all the time and then I doubt after 3 years, Xavi's performances for Spain would be the same as they are for Barcelona because he's out of position. Higuain and Fabiano are no better than Rooney, yet they score goals because they are playing in the positions they do EVERY SINGLE WEEK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AVFC-Prideofbrum Posted June 22, 2010 Share Posted June 22, 2010 The problem is at the moment: Best players playing out of position in an unbalanced side with Gerrard on the left. Lack of creativity and confidence. So your solution to that is drop the best players and play your decent players in a system that fits to a 4-4-2. Rather than just changing the system to allow the best players to play in their best positions? Why does that sound weird to you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodytom Posted June 22, 2010 Share Posted June 22, 2010 Right, So you'd pick Defoe who has done absolutely **** all on the international stage. You'd pick Milner who is completly inexperienced and done **** all on the international stage and Lennon who has done **** all on the international stage. Yet you'd leave Rooney out who has done more than all of them on his own but is being played out of position? I know this sounds funny but how about just play players in their positions or at least the best players in their positions and see what happens I KNOW, I KNOW, It sounds daft, playing the best players in their best positions but sometimes it can work. I.e. -------Barry------- Milner--Lampard--- --------Gerrard---Cole ---------Rooney------. Milner in as you said to provide some discipline to allow Lampard, Gerrard, Cole to support. I don't get why you would drop all the best players simply because they are played out of position. Why don't you play the other players out of position. I simply don't see the arguement. Why not just put your best players in their best positions like they fit. Why put your average players in their best positions. Sorry but am I missing something here..... Id pick those players because they might show the effort and desire that is needed. Doesnt matter how good you are, or whether your played in your fave position or not. You should be proud to be given a chance and stop moaning. Mourinho wouldnt stand for it, Cappello wont and neither would I. You say Defoe Milner etc have done jack shit for England - I agree. But neither have Gerrard and Lampard in almost 170 caps!!!!! Ive said earlier in the thread that systems matter later in the competition but not now. Not when your playing Algeria. Surely Wayne Rooney and Gerrard (who are essentially the only two players slightly out of position) - you make it sound like the whole team is out of position - can adapt for Algeria. Surely? After all they are world class dont forget You still havent answered my question What is it exactly that makes you believe that the team should be built around Steven gerrard? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woodytom Posted June 22, 2010 Share Posted June 22, 2010 The problem is at the moment: Best players playing out of position in an unbalanced side with Gerrard on the left. Lack of creativity and confidence. So your solution to that is drop the best players and play your decent players in a system that fits to a 4-4-2. Rather than just changing the system to allow the best players to play in their best positions? Why does that sound weird to you? I dont understand why Gerrards even considered for the team?? And you dont seem to be able to tell me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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