Do you believe in God ?

[JulieB]

.. I am not a Genetisist I only read articles and what the Scientific press release...

There are huge discussions over Genetics and Evolutions currently.....not least about the differences between Chimpanzee and Human DNA and the fact that their are too many differences being highlighted between the two sets of Chromosomes for their eventual reproduction to have been possible.“Large differences in DNA, not small ones, separate apes and monkeys from both humans and each other,” says Britain’s New Scientist magazine. “There are large deletions and insertions sprinkled throughout the chromosome,” explains Kelly Frazer of Perlegen Sciences, the California, U.S.A., company that did the analysis. New Scientist characterized the differences as a “yawning gap [that] divides monkeys and us.”

However we could sit here all day quoting this article and that article....

All of us can examine the evidence for ourselves and make our minds up...that's everyone's choice

Adam and Eve according to Genesis were created perfect with perfect DNA, therefore inter-marriage between their offspring would have been possible in those circumstances until the human race grew to an extent where this became un-necessary. Indeed how could it be considered wrong when according to the Bible- God's instructions to Adam & Eve were to reproduce and fill the Earth. How else would that be possible unless their offspring conceived children between each other? Abraham's wife Sarah was also in fact his half sister. However as time went on and as generations deteriorated from perfection inter-marriage between siblings stopped.

I don't need to scoff at other people's beliefs, I was merely pointing out there is an alternative explanation given in the Bible.If anyone chooses to dismiss Biblical accounts as nonsense including the account of Adam & Eve...then that is their absolute right...however it is NOT right to presume that anyone else who chooses to believe in them is any less Scientific or in some way mentally deficient. Whatever I believe in certainly compels me to behave better towards my fellow humans than that.

So is that such a bad thing?

“Science deals with the measurable, religion deals with the immeasurable,” suggested author William Rees-Mogg. He said: “Science can neither prove nor disprove the existence of God, any more than it can prove or disprove any moral or aesthetic proposition. There is no scientific reason to love one’s neighbour or to respect human life . . . To argue that nothing exists which cannot be proved scientifically is the crudest of errors, which would eliminate almost everything we value in life, not only God or the human spirit, but love and poetry and music.”

[Risso]

There are many other instances whereby the Bible has proved historical before other evidence was un-earthed eg Ninevah. Risso's point was...so what if the Biblle is historical...however my viewpoint is that ...if the Bible is correct historically in the parts that can be proved...then how can other parts simply be dismissed as tosh?

Because they're scientifcally impossible and defy all logic. I god created the laws of the universe he isn't going to go around letting people break them willy nilly.

[dundeevilla]

Studies of the Human DNA bring scientist's to conclude that their would have been an or an original male and female human.

Can you please point me to these studies as I would be very interested to read them.

Who carried them out, where, and are the papers available to read.

Thanks.

[LondonLax]

.. I am not a Genetisist I only read articles and what the Scientific press release...

There are huge discussions over Genetics and Evolutions currently.....not least about the differences between Chimpanzee and Human DNA and the fact that their are too many differences being highlighted between the two sets of Chromosomes for their eventual reproduction to have been possible.“Large differences in DNA, not small ones, separate apes and monkeys from both humans and each other,” says Britain’s New Scientist magazine. “There are large deletions and insertions sprinkled throughout the chromosome,” explains Kelly Frazer of Perlegen Sciences, the California, U.S.A., company that did the analysis. New Scientist characterized the differences as a “yawning gap [that] divides monkeys and us.”

However we could sit here all day quoting this article and that article....

All of us can examine the evidence for ourselves and make our minds up...that's everyone's choice

Adam and Eve according to Genesis were created perfect with perfect DNA, therefore inter-marriage between their offspring would have been possible in those circumstances until the human race grew to an extent where this became un-necessary. Indeed how could it be considered wrong when according to the Bible- God's instructions to Adam & Eve were to reproduce and fill the Earth. How else would that be possible unless their offspring conceived children between each other? Abraham's wife Sarah was also in fact his half sister. However as time went on and as generations deteriorated from perfection inter-marriage between siblings stopped.

I don't need to scoff at other people's beliefs, I was merely pointing out there is an alternative explanation given in the Bible.If anyone chooses to dismiss Biblical accounts as nonsense including the account of Adam & Eve...then that is their absolute right...however it is NOT right to presume that anyone else who chooses to believe in them is any less Scientific or in some way mentally deficient. Whatever I believe in certainly compels me to behave better towards my fellow humans than that.

So is that such a bad thing?

“Science deals with the measurable, religion deals with the immeasurable,” suggested author William Rees-Mogg. He said: “Science can neither prove nor disprove the existence of God, any more than it can prove or disprove any moral or aesthetic proposition. There is no scientific reason to love one’s neighbour or to respect human life . . . To argue that nothing exists which cannot be proved scientifically is the crudest of errors, which would eliminate almost everything we value in life, not only God or the human spirit, but love and poetry and music.”

But even if that were true and there was an Adam and Eve and all Humans came from their perfect relatives the bible is really pushing it when it asks you to believe it happened again after the "great flood". Now we are all descended from Noah's family as well. Were they all perfect too? And every breeding pair of animals? Were they all genetically perfect? How did they all get on that boat anyway? Did the marsupials happily hop round the world to Australia? And the Bison casually walk back to the Americas to start their population growth over there?

If you are going to start taking it literally but there are things within that are demonstratably wrong then that casts doubt over the whole book. You would have to start questioning if any of it is right. It may contain some historical accuracies within the legends and stories of the people of that time but to use is as a scientifically accurate way to explain the history of our universe is literally absurd and quite dangerous as it closes the mind off to possibilities which may be right but do not fit the bible model.

[Santa_Rosa]

It may contain some historical accuracies within the legends and stories of the people of that time but to use is as a scientifically accurate way to explain the history of our universe is literally absurd

Indeed. I am absolutely amazed that anyone holds this belief. We all descended from two people? Until the flood when it started again? Amazing.

Whenever I hear stuff like this I'm reminded of that Billy Connolly riff where he says something along the lines of "These people need help. They think there are invisible folk, flying about telling God when you're w@nking. 'Oh him, he's always w@nking. Have I no' got enough to deal with wi'Bosnia?'"

The more I read this thread (which is great stuff by the way) and the links from it, the more I am falling into the 'No' camp.

[dundeevilla]

Pope's in the news today

[Pelle]

Still, isn't it quite interesting that almost every ancient religion and culture have a story about a flood wiping out most existing life?

[tonyh29]

Still, isn't it quite interesting that almost every ancient religion and culture have a story about a flood wiping out most existing life?

i used to have a web site that showed the origin stories of all religions , ancient civilisations .. they were all very similar indeed ... most of the Old testament seems to stem from events and beliefs of Ancient Egypt though ..

there is evidence of the flood though so it's fair to say that if different tribes around the globe survived it , they would pass down stories about it ...

[Santa_Rosa]

It is interesting Pelle. Maybe there was a Tsunami in those parts like the one Asia suffered recently. As other posters have said, maybe these stories are based on historical events that did indeed happen in some form or another. Doesn't mean God caused them to happen though.

And isn't it the case that the flood stories are all about God's wrath against people who weren't behaving as he wants? Given that organised religion is a way of controlling the masses and getting them to behave in a certain way such stories are a useful threat. So it's interesting, but not surprising. That's my take on it anyhow.

[TheDon]

.. I am not a Genetisist I only read articles and what the Scientific press release...

That much is obvious.

Want to comment on there actually being NO proof of an original couple?

There are huge discussions over Genetics and Evolutions currently.....not least about the differences between Chimpanzee and Human DNA and the fact that their are too many differences being highlighted between the two sets of Chromosomes for their eventual reproduction to have been possible.“Large differences in DNA, not small ones, separate apes and monkeys from both humans and each other,” says Britain’s New Scientist magazine. “There are large deletions and insertions sprinkled throughout the chromosome,” explains Kelly Frazer of Perlegen Sciences, the California, U.S.A., company that did the analysis. New Scientist characterized the differences as a “yawning gap [that] divides monkeys and us.”

This is pretty damn obvious, and in no way is an argument against us evolving.

We aren't evolved from Chimpanzees, we share a common ancestor, which we both diversed from. This process happened over a period of millions of years, and occured millions of years ago. That there are now massive differences in our dna is a case of "no shit sherlock" for pretty much any geneticist. These changes in DNA are EXACTLY what causes evolution.

Adam and Eve according to Genesis were created perfect with perfect DNA, therefore inter-marriage between their offspring would have been possible in those circumstances until the human race grew to an extent where this became un-necessary. Indeed how could it be considered wrong when according to the Bible- God's instructions to Adam & Eve were to reproduce and fill the Earth. How else would that be possible unless their offspring conceived children between each other? Abraham's wife Sarah was also in fact his half sister. However as time went on and as generations deteriorated from perfection inter-marriage between siblings stopped.

No, it's still not possible.

It doesn't matter how "perfect" the DNA is, you'll still get major issues.

I don't need to scoff at other people's beliefs, I was merely pointing out there is an alternative explanation given in the Bible.If anyone chooses to dismiss Biblical accounts as nonsense including the account of Adam & Eve...then that is their absolute right...however it is NOT right to presume that anyone else who chooses to believe in them is any less Scientific or in some way mentally deficient. Whatever I believe in certainly compels me to behave better towards my fellow humans than that.

So is that such a bad thing?

When science disagrees with those accounts then yes, it is right to presume that anyone that chooses to believe them is less scientific, because they're ignoring science to believe a story in a book.

Feel free to believe it, but don't try to say you're just as scientific as people that dismiss them based on the cold hard facts of science, because you're not.

“Science deals with the measurable, religion deals with the immeasurable,” suggested author William Rees-Mogg. He said: “Science can neither prove nor disprove the existence of God, any more than it can prove or disprove any moral or aesthetic proposition. There is no scientific reason to love one’s neighbour or to respect human life . . . To argue that nothing exists which cannot be proved scientifically is the crudest of errors, which would eliminate almost everything we value in life, not only God or the human spirit, but love and poetry and music.”

Luckily the story of Adam and Eve is measurable. We may not be able to prove the fact God doesn't exist, but we've done a great job at dismissing the story of creation.

[limpid]

Adam and Eve according to Genesis were created perfect with perfect DNA, therefore inter-marriage between their offspring would have been possible in those circumstances until the human race grew to an extent where this became un-necessary.

If DNA started perfect and became less perfect, isn't that a confirmation of evolution?

[Pelle]

Agreed, Tony and santarosa. At the time people would call it the wrath of God and pass it on, so no surprise. Had we been on their level now we'd probably say the same thing about the Tsunami from 2003, was it? :oops: Now we know a lot more about why these things happens. Still won't prevent people from calling it a punishment by God, and tbh if they're right about him it might be. But we don't take that as much for granted anymore as we know what happens. But that is one of the proofs for me that shows that religion and gods partly were "created" to explain such things.

[JulieB]

I actually came to believe in the Bible because of the flood legends found in places where tribes had never seen the sea as in North American tribes and in regions of the Himalayas. I became fascinated by Anti Deluvian ancient history and beyond. The Bible goes to great lengths to list both the genealogies from Adam...going through to Noah ..right down to Jesus. The Bible in stark contrast to other Creation versions form Egypt, Babylon explains it's origin...whilst the others assume a Universe already in existence....

However....I can't remember the last time I was so patronised

31% on the poll have said they believe in God and yet hardly any post on the thread.

Is it any wonder when if you dare to admit to believing in a divine being that created the Universe you are rounded upon and laughed at.

My answers are now likened to a sketch off Billy Connolly wanking! That's the final straw..

I am not going to spend anymore valuable time trying to answer questions that some don't really want to hear an answer to anyhow. Some appear to ask them just for the fun of laughing and deriding the response.

A number of you DO NOT DISCUSS ....YOU DISMISS!!

If this is an example of how people who believe in Evolution and a Godless society behave, then quite frankly I'm thankful I am a Christian!

If ANYONE wishes to ask me a specific question on my belief in the Bible or God then please PM me, I'll do my best to respond.

[TheDon]

I am not going to spend anymore valuable time trying to answer questions that some don't really want to hear an answer to anyhow. Some appear to ask them just for the fun of laughing and deriding the response.

Probably because you're not answering questions, just quoting scripture and word definitions.

You stated there's scientific evidence of an original couple, I've said there's not, and not only is there not but the concept of population bottlenecks makes it an impossibility (look at the populations of animals that have been bought back from near extinction, they are all at severe risk from disease due to a lack of diversity) and asked you to provide this evidence, you haven't. Hell I even explained how you've probably just got the wrong idea about what MRCAs are, but it just gets ignored with no reply.

Maybe people are just bored of having people making statements without having the references to then back them up when questioned on them?

[dundeevilla]

However....I can't remember the last time I was so patronised

31% on the poll have said they believe in God and yet hardly any post on the thread.

Is it any wonder when if you dare to admit to believing in a divine being that created the Universe you are rounded upon and laughed at.

My answers are now likened to a sketch off Billy Connolly wanking! That's the final straw..

I am not going to spend anymore valuable time trying to answer questions that some don't really want to hear an answer to anyhow. Some appear to ask them just for the fun of laughing and deriding the response.

If this is an example of how people who believe in Evolution and a Godless society behave, then quite frankly I'm thankful I am a Christian!

If ANYONE wishes to ask me a specific question on my belief in the Bible or God then please PM me, I'll do my best to respond.

With all due respect you haven't anwered any of the questions I asked you on this thread Julie.

A number of you DO NOT DISCUSS ....YOU DISMISS!!

You've said that rods turned into snakes, Adam and Eve existed and science has backed this up, evolution is false and that belief in a supernatural creator is scientific. These claims are are easily dismissed Im afraid - there is no point discussing them seriously because quite frankly they are ludicrous.

I really don't mean to sound partonising at all, but do I feel sorry for you if you honestly believe all this stuff and live your life according to it. It makes me quite sad.

:|

[rjw63]

This one is either gonna get locked or go for 500 pages

[Wol.]

Why dont all species evolve into more than they are ? Why is it only humans that can read, write, laugh, cry so on ....

What drove us to evolve and for monkeys to stay the same ?

If only one persons has FAITH in a God then does that mean God exists. Their belief and faith creating a real actual effect on life.

So for me God exists the question is did God create Man or did Man create a God ?

[dundeevilla]

Why dont all species evolve into more that they are ? Why is it only humans that can read, write, laugh, cry so on ....

What drove us to evolve and for monkeys to stay the same ?

All species are constantly evolving - the process hasn't stopped and it never will as long as there is life.

Monkey's didn't "stay the same" they evolved - into monkeys!

Mankind and apes both evolved from a common ancestor.

Read a book about evolution as you don't appear to fully understand it. You might find it interesting and it will answer all your questions.

[Brumerican]

I actually came to believe in the Bible because of the flood legends found in places where tribes had never seen the sea as in North American tribes and in regions of the Himalayas. I became fascinated by Anti Deluvian ancient history and beyond. The Bible goes to great lengths to list both the genealogies from Adam...going through to Noah ..right down to Jesus.

Depending on which Gospel you read, you get a completely different genealogy from Abraham to Jesus. Why is that Julie?

How can you consider the gospels to be an accurate eyewitness account of Jesus' death and resurrection, when they werent even written down until between 30 and 70 years after his death!

Why havent you replied to my post where I provided a link, from a Biblical expert , that shows that the word you thought meant orb, actually meant circle?

Why are there no records in Egyptology, of there ever been a sizeable tribe of Israelites in Egypt?

Why are the 10 commandments, practically copied word for word from the Egyptian book of the dead?

Why can people still believe In Adam and Eve as literal, when the evidence that we descended from other bi-pedal animals is OVERWHELMING. And I mean overwhelming! This isnt even disputed anymore amongst science.

Why are there so many countless contradictions in such an "important" book?

Why doesnt God heal amputees? You always hear of cancer victims being saved by prayer, but not one single amputee, believer or not, has ever had a missing limb re-generate?

Why is the bible more believeable than the Quran?

[LondonLax]

Why dont all species evolve into more than they are ? Why is it only humans that can read, write, laugh, cry so on ....

What drove us to evolve and for monkeys to stay the same ?

If only one persons has FAITH in a God then does that mean God exists. Their belief and faith creating a real actual effect on life.

So for me God exists the question is did God create Man or did Man create a God ?

Well for your first question, evolution takes a lot of time. We happened to get there first. There were other creatures like neanderthals who may well be able do all those things had they not become extinct and perhaps many thousands of years in the future other species will develop those abilities.

In you second question I believe God is a man made idea. It's is useful for humans to invent a god or gods for so many reasons and we have been doing it in every period of history in almost every part of the world.