JulieB Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 Amazingly it's true. She really did say that. Yeah and then everyone who has beleif in God gets tarred with the same brush! However that would not be my response to you...at all.. Like when my friend's baby died..the Vicar told her.."God needed another Angel in heaven" Well I'm sorry why was she born then...why didn't she go to Route A if that was the case??!! But I'm on my way out so I'll have to PM you later if that's OK? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 In the don't give a shit group. I believe in science and it was all made up to give people some kind of purpose. I do believe Jesus existed but was just a normal bloke none of this son of god pish Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 Read the Bible recently? Why 'recently'? Has it changed much since I studied it at school? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 He KNOWS our future. He did not MAKE our future. He made free will and then we used that free will and made our own future. He sees the future we made. Did God become omniscient only once he had given us this free will? Or was he omniscient always? If so then he knew exactly what he was doing when giving us this free will as he was perfectly aware of what was going to happen - in such a way he did make our future and was completely responsible for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted February 19, 2009 VT Supporter Share Posted February 19, 2009 The Bible is an interesting thing. A mate of mine at uni uses his for 2 things - he keeps money in it, and he also, when pissed and looking for something to get people chuckling, will dig out some of the barking mad stuff in it. A few weeks ago he read out some part about not allowing bald men to have sex, and not allowing sideburns. I dunno the sextion exactly (I suspect Leviticus), but it was definitely gospel, so to speak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted February 19, 2009 Moderator Share Posted February 19, 2009 Read the Bible recently? Why 'recently'? Has it changed much since I studied it at school? Depends which King was on the throne when you were studying it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brumerican Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 He KNOWS our future. He did not MAKE our future. He made free will and then we used that free will and made our own future. He sees the future we made. Did God become omniscient only once he had given us this free will? Or was he omniscient always? If so then he knew exactly what he was doing when giving us this free will as he was perfectly aware of what was going to happen - in such a way he did make our future and was completely responsible for it. Exactly. God could have created men who are incapable of evil, but chose not too. If you believe the bible to be 100% literally true then you believe the book of genesis. Why did god put the forbidden tree there in the first place? He knew they would eat from it before they even did, so freewill is complete rubbish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 Read the Bible recently? Why 'recently'? Has it changed much since I studied it at school? Depends which King was on the throne when you were studying it I suppose I left myself wide open to that.:winkold: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulieB Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 I think you have misunderstood what I have said. I haven't said that it is imperfect to have free will. What I questioned was how these creatures which were perfect were able to become imperfect. It seems that they were able to choose to become imperfect because of this thing which they were given called free will. If something is perfect and its creator adds something which then goes on to make it imperfect then wouldn't that suggest that the creator is responsible for that imperfection. To compare this to parents and babies is ludicrous. Parents do not have control over their children (or their perfection) in the same way as a god-like creator. No I'm sorry...I don't agree with this... Adam and Eve were created perfect...however they were not created robots he tested them and told them that if they failed the test they would die...they chose to folllow a spirit creature that questioned God's authority over them and also said God had lied to them and said they positively would not die. Adam and Eve did indeed eventually die after they had borne many offspring. The Bible calls God a Heavenly Father so I don't think it is ridiculous to liken his authority and their free will to a father with his children. What I'm trying to say is that although created perfect...imperfection and sin were possible for God's creations.They could make a choice. Clearly a number of spirit creatures followed Satan and became part of his organisation as the Bible refers to Satan and the Demons. Satan effectively laid down a challenge to God that no perfect human could obey him...all would fail. As I said before have a look at Job Chapter 1. We all inherited that sin and imperfection from Adam and Eve as their offspring according to the Bible therefore we all die. God did indeed take responsibility for the Evil...he immediately stated that someone would come along and balance up the scales and answer the Devil's accusation, which is why someone from the Israelites and the seed of Adam would indeed be born and give his life so that question could be answered. Jesus as God's son gave his faithful perfect life to balance up those scales and directly answer Satan's taunting's of the Creator of mankind. This at some point in the future after Jesus death would open up to sin and death being removed from mankind on his return. That's another discussion entirely...... Anyway, IIRC I have to correct Julie on one note. You said that the babylonians and egyptians thought the earth was flat. When I studied history at university, with some good results I have to say, and by reading books and stuff I'v elearned that both these cultures thought the world was round and they knew that because of some pretty advanced instruments to measure stars and all that. Can't really fully explain it in english, but they studied the stars and concluded the earth was round to simplify it. Maybe they told the jews how it was and not some God? The jews were nomads, weren't they, hardly a well educated high standing people. To be fair..I'm not sure if both the Babylonian's or the Egyptian's thought the Earth was round or not. Maybe that is unfair to assume. I do know that MANY Pagan civilisations thought the earth was flat for instance regarding the ancient Greeks, the book A Guide to the Gods explains: “The earth was seen as a flat surface surrounded by a vast tract of water called Ocean. Beyond this lay the Afterworld, a gloomy wasteland dotted with dark and fruitless plants.” When this proved to be a myth, pagan philosophers had to relocate their so-called afterworld. “A suitable place was found, under the earth, connected to this world by various caverns,” explains author Richard Carlyon. Today, we know that this also is a myth. No such underworld or passage exists. PJ Wiseman quotes The Babylonian Legends of the Creation and the Fight Between Bel and the Dragon, issued by the Trustees of the British Museum, who hold that “the fundamental conceptions of the Babylonian and Hebrew accounts are essentially different.” He himself observes: “It is more than a pity that many theologians, instead of keeping abreast of modern archaeological research, continue to repeat the now disproved theory of Hebrew ‘borrowings’ from Babylonian sources.”—Creation Revealed in Six Days, London, 1949, p. 58. Therefore I would re-iterate how on earth would Moses know that the Earth was suspended on nothing. Also the Hebrew word for "circle" also is literally translated Orb, which IIRC is the EXACT shape of the Earth...because the Poles are slighly flattened.. It would be very difficult to accept that Moses just made a good guess...or was influenced by other civilisations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr_Dogg Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 I have to say that the vast majority of christians don't literally believe in the bible and are not told to either. Adam and Eve for example is a fable. Of course I don't believe in any of it but that's irrelevant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brumerican Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 No I'm sorry...I don't agree with this... Adam and Eve were created perfect...however they were not created robots he tested them and told them that if they failed the test they would die...they chose to folllow a spirit creature that questioned God's authority over them and also said God had lied to them and said they positively would not die. Adam and Eve did indeed eventually die after they had borne many offspring. The Bible calls God a Heavenly Father so I don't think it is ridiculous to liken his authority and their free will to a father with his children. What I'm trying to say is that although created perfect...imperfection and sin were possible for God's creations.They could make a choice. Clearly a number of spirit creatures followed Satan and became part of his organisation as the Bible refers to Satan and the Demons. Satan effectively laid down a challenge to God that no perfect human could obey him...all would fail. As I said before have a look at Job Chapter 1. We all inherited that sin and imperfection from Adam and Eve as their offspring according to the Bible therefore we all die. Firstly, The story of Adam and Eve is Allegorical. Even the Vatican doesn't dispute this anymore. However, if you are retarded enough to take this story as literal truth, then its a Psychiatrist you need and not a priest. We know for a fact that man descended from a common ancestor that we share with the other primates. We werent created from dust or Adams ribs. Secondly. Imagine this fairytale was true. Adam and Eve are the only humans in existence. They have the whole planet to themselves. God, their creator actually physically interacts with them . He only has one rule!!! Dont eat from that tree! So what do Adam and Eve do? Listen to a **** talking snake!!! Yeah right!!! The bible, correctly read, presents the biggest case for atheism ever written down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pelle Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 It would be very difficult to accept that Moses just made a good guess...or was influenced by other civilisations. Sorry to cut out all the rest of your quote but I just wanted to highlight this and I did read the whole post. Seeing as he's believed to been brought up by egyptians, who "knew" this whole thing about the world being round, not flat, he might've been told by them, right? Just hypothically, do you think they could've learned him about this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulieB Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 Actually BrumAmerican I have taken Forensic Psychiatry and have wrote a paper for the UK government on Personality Disorders which was used in a fairly recent White Paper...so no I don't think I'll take you up on the offer... I'm not interested in the Vatican or it's beleifs...only my own... Studies of the Human DNA bring scientist's to conclude that their would have been an or an original male and female human. Like I said you scoff all you want...I was responding to a question someone else asked me Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brumerican Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 It would be very difficult to accept that Moses just made a good guess...or was influenced by other civilisations. Sorry to cut out all the rest of your quote but I just wanted to highlight this and I did read the whole post. Seeing as he's believed to been brought up by egyptians, who "knew" this whole thing about the world being round, not flat, he might've been told by them, right? Just hypothically, do you think they could've learned him about this? Are you saying that Moses, who was allegedly, found as an infant by Egyptians, then raised by Egyptians, might have actually picked up on some Egyptian knowledge! You may be on to something there!!! Ps as I mentioned in an earlier post, the ten commandments can be found pretty much word for word in the Egyptian book of the dead (written well before the Bible BTW) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sparey16 Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 im 17, i believe in god. christian is what i am. Proud. Attend church every sunday (the one next to VP), but i also go agaisnt my religion in part of my lifestyle Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulieB Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 Sorry to cut out all the rest of your quote but I just wanted to highlight this and I did read the whole post. Seeing as he's believed to been brought up by egyptians, who "knew" this whole thing about the world being round, not flat, he might've been told by them, right? Just hypothically, do you think they could've learned him about this? Yes he was bought up as an Egyptian and a very learned one in the house of Pharaoh.. Which was my retort to the Bible being written by a bunch of Bronze Age Farmers...... I will try and do some research on this point about the Egyptians believing the Earth was round and come back to you, I only know their associations with Sun and Moon, which they depicted as being round. If we take that Moses took a good guess then it still doesn't explain his use of the Hebrew word meaning "Orb" and it doesn't explain (Job 26:7) . . ."He is stretching out the north over the empty place, Hanging the earth upon nothing." Would be interesting to research what the Egyptian beleifs were on Creation also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brumerican Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 I'm not interested in the Vatican or it's beleifs...only my own... Studies of the Human DNA bring scientist's to conclude that their would have been an or an original male and female human. Whats your source for that ? Because Everything I read says that approx 93% of the worlds leading scientists treat evolution as fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulieB Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 Whats your source for that ? Again I'll do some research and come back to you! You have to realise I only gave TWO examples of the Bible being scientific..there are other's Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 No I'm sorry...I don't agree with this... I am not surprised by that. Adam and Eve were created perfect...however they were not created robots he tested them and told them that if they failed the test they would die...they chose to folllow a spirit creature that questioned God's authority over them and also said God had lied to them and said they positively would not die. Please don't take this as anything personal, Julie, but repetition of a story neither makes it more plausible nor more true and it certainly goes no way to explaining it or to countering a question that springs out of that story. The Bible calls God a Heavenly Father so I don't think it is ridiculous to liken his authority and their free will to a father with his children. The bible may call him a 'heavenly father' just because it uses the same word does not mean that the comparison is actually worthwhile. In order for it to be so then each and every single parent would have to go about the creation of each and every child from the very beginning and I am not talking from the moment of physical conception. They would have to design every detail of the child down to the molecular level. They would need to understand how to do it, how everything interacts, what the consequences of all of their designs will be. Indeed they would need to be like a god-style creator rather than two creatures who take part in a process. God did indeed take responsibility for the Evil If God is responsible for the evil and sent Jesus along to correct things then it would suggest that he made a bit of a cock up, wouldn't it? That would suggest that he is not perfect. So we have an imperfect God who chooses not to exercise his omnipotence to correct the error he made and also chooses to ignore the fruits of his omniscience in order to judge mankind for carrying out the actions that God knew all along were going to be made. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brumerican Posted February 19, 2009 Share Posted February 19, 2009 Sorry to cut out all the rest of your quote but I just wanted to highlight this and I did read the whole post. Seeing as he's believed to been brought up by egyptians, who "knew" this whole thing about the world being round, not flat, he might've been told by them, right? Just hypothically, do you think they could've learned him about this? Yes he was bought up as an Egyptian and a very learned one in the house of Pharaoh.. Which was my retort to the Bible being written by a bunch of Bronze Age Farmers...... I will try and do some research on this point about the Egyptians believing the Earth was round and come back to you, I only know their associations with Sun and Moon, which they depicted as being round. If we take that Moses took a good guess then it still doesn't explain his use of the Hebrew word meaning "Orb" and it doesn't explain (Job 26:7) . . ."He is stretching out the north over the empty place, Hanging the earth upon nothing." Would be interesting to research what the Egyptian beleifs were on Creation also. Getting a bit tired of you clinging on to that "orb" defense. Question To Jim Miller (http://www.allexperts.com/ep/1654-691/Bible-Studies/Jim-Miller.htm) In Isaiah 40:22, "He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers...." now I was told by my friend who is a Rabbi, that the Hebrew word for the place of circle-is one i cant pronounce or spell, sorry- but the hebrew word means sphere, or orb, possibly globe in out language. Can you concur? and how did the idea of the Earth as a circle or orb could be revealed to men of that time? Unless alittle secret said by God? Thank you for your time. The word is chug (the "ch" pronounced like in loch or Bach). The cognate verb means "to draw a circle." The noun means circle, or horizon --which is the circle which defines the edge of your vision. It is extremely interpretive to understand the term as orb or sphere. Perhaps that was a later meaning of the term. The simple meaning is "circle". How much further you want to take that meaning is up to you. I hope this is helpful, Jim Miller Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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