Do you believe in God ?

[TheDon]

Brum, quoting massive passages of someone elses work (which by the way most of it is mere opinions and not fact, which goes against everything science is) is not going to get you anywhere in this debate.

Sorry, but

"Chimps More Evolved Than Humans "

So you'll agree with that?

Walk into Oxford and they will all agree with you that that is fact?

Mk.

Why would anyone who HASN'T studied how much chimpanzees dna has evolved have a clue about the answer? They won't.

No one is saying that Chimps are more complex or advanced than humans, just that their DNA has evolved more, as in, a greater proportion of it has changed since speciation occurred.

[Chindie]

I think you've misunderstood what is meant by chimps being more evolved than humans. It's possible for chimps to have evolved further along their branch of the tree, so to speak, but not to have gained anymore than us, and indeed they may never do. Evolution is random. We have achieved our current level of evolution in less time (or steps, if you want) than chimps, but chimps have moved on less but with more evolution from their original start point. Thus while we are a 'higher' being than chimps, they can still have evolved further from their basis than us. It just so happens that our evolution did more to our benefit than them.

If that makes sense...

EDIT - Of course directed at Jondaken.

[TrentVilla]

The Human Tailbone (Coccyx)

These fused vertebrae are the only vestiges that are left of the tail that other mammals still use for balance, communication, and in some primates, as a prehensile limb. As our ancestors were learning to walk upright, their tail became useless, and it slowly disappeared. It has been suggested that the coccyx helps to anchor minor muscles and may support pelvic organs. However, there have been many well documented medical cases where the tailbone has been surgically removed with little or no adverse effects. There have been documented cases of infants born with tails, an extended version of the tailbone that is composed of extra vertebrae. There are no adverse health effects of such a tail, unless perhaps the child was born in the Dark Ages. In that case, the child and the mother, now considered witches, would?ve been killed instantly.

Humans - Crafted from DNA so perfect that it gave us a tailbone.

Maybe Adam and Eve were actually cats?

Jesus that made me laugh :winkold:

I've watched red dwarf, I know it's possible.

That even showed you can create a breeding population from just one pregnant cat!

Doesn't that make the universe a dirty washing basket and the earth a dirty sock? :winkold:

[Wol.]

the nipples thing is because male and female gender is not decided straight away btw

This is once again a flaw in humans,

"There are more things in heaven and earth, TheDon,

Than are dreamt of in your philosophy"

If there was a big house where God lived and came out to say hello every now and again there would be no need for faith. What would people do is they were 100% sure or even knowingly in the presence of God. There would be nothing, just people waiting for instruction of direction no desire to explore existence.

"The greatest trick God ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist"

or was that the devil ?

[TrentVilla]

The way I always see it is that Faith is something you have in the absence of proof. Kind of says it all for me.

[Brumerican]

Proving evolution exists does not dismiss the existence of a God ( the nipples thing is because male and female gender is not decided straight away btw)

The infallibility of God was created in the dogma surrounding religion, A God may well have designed a world to evolve with us as will continue to do so.

Evolution disproves The book of genesis emphatically though! If the first book of the bible is complete and utter tosh, then why are people expected to believe any of it!?

Explain.

Explain what?

If the bible is wrong about where we came from, why should we believe it in regards to where we are going?

We know how our planet was created, and we know how humans have evolved from single cells organisms. The story of Adam and Eve was written by men who knew practically nothing about evolution, why volcanoes erupt, why we have floods and storms etc. It is a primitive allegorical story, written at a time when civilization was still in its infancy.

Religion really is the opiate of the masses. I understand why people need religion, and it does serve a purpose. People are scared of dying and thats fair enough, but I would rather put every ounce of my time into enjoying this life, instead of wasting time dreaming about another life afterwards.

If you want to define your god as a first cause, then thats fine, but if you really think their is a divine creator, who takes an interest in humanity but who himself is a murderous , homophobic baby killer then you really are deluded.

Ps People who genuinely believe that the story of Adam and Eve is a realstic account of the creation of humanity, shouldnt be allowed to benefit from scientific discoveries. That Includes the internet and medicine and aeroplanes and TVs and cars and etc etc ad infinium.

Pps why are the religious so defensive when they have nothing to fear? You have god on your side apparently?

[Jondaken]

Brum, quoting massive passages of someone elses work (which by the way most of it is mere opinions and not fact, which goes against everything science is) is not going to get you anywhere in this debate.

Sorry, but

"Chimps More Evolved Than Humans "

So you'll agree with that?

Walk into Oxford and they will all agree with you that that is fact?

Mk.

Why would anyone who HASN'T studied how much chimpanzees dna has evolved have a clue about the answer? They won't.

No one is saying that Chimps are more complex or advanced than humans, just that their DNA has evolved more, as in, a greater proportion of it has changed since speciation occurred.

But this is not scientific FACT. It is OPINION.

"Since the human-chimp split about 6 million years ago, chimpanzee genes can be said to have evolved more than human genes, a new study suggests."

I read the heading, I thought, utter nonsense. I read the first 2 lines, not only did it change the subject, as in it's just their "genes" that are supposedly more evolved, as the title would not lead you to think, but the article itself admits its not FACT. And the second paragraph it says it contradicts "conventional wisdom", that is to say it contradicts other study's.

If you want to deal with science vs religion then you are going to have to show facts in these big massive quotes and not some "new study" that "suggests" something.

"There is still much to learn, the scientists say, about human and chimp evolution. “There are possibly a lot of differences between human and chimps that we don’t know about, [perhaps] because there are differences in chimps that nobody has studied; a lot of studies tend to focus on humans,” Bakewell said."

So basically, there is a lot they do not know, and hence this is not FACT, mere speculation.

[Brumerican]

Brum, quoting massive passages of someone elses work (which by the way most of it is mere opinions and not fact, which goes against everything science is) is not going to get you anywhere in this debate.

Sorry, but

"Chimps More Evolved Than Humans "

So you'll agree with that?

Walk into Oxford and they will all agree with you that that is fact?

Mk.

Why would anyone who HASN'T studied how much chimpanzees dna has evolved have a clue about the answer? They won't.

No one is saying that Chimps are more complex or advanced than humans, just that their DNA has evolved more, as in, a greater proportion of it has changed since speciation occurred.

But this is not scientific FACT. It is OPINION.

"Since the human-chimp split about 6 million years ago, chimpanzee genes can be said to have evolved more than human genes, a new study suggests."

I read the heading, I thought, utter nonsense. I read the first 2 lines, not only did it change the subject, as in it's just their "genes" that are supposedly more evolved, as the title would not lead you to think, but the article itself admits its not FACT. And the second paragraph it says it contradicts "conventional wisdom", that is to say it contradicts other study's.

If you want to deal with science vs religion then you are going to have to show facts in these big massive quotes and not some "new study" that "suggests" something.

"There is still much to learn, the scientists say, about human and chimp evolution. “There are possibly a lot of differences between human and chimps that we don’t know about, [perhaps] because there are differences in chimps that nobody has studied; a lot of studies tend to focus on humans,” Bakewell said."

So basically, there is a lot they do not know, and hence this is not FACT, mere speculation.

Humans and the great apes descended from a common bi-pedal ancestor. This is a fact.

Can you deny this?

[Brumerican]

If you want to deal with science vs religion then you are going to have to show facts in these big massive quotes and not some "new study" that "suggests" something.

Kind of ironic, being as religion has absolutely no facts or evidence to back up any of their claims.

The evidence in support of Evolution is OVERWHELMING

[Jondaken]

Proving evolution exists does not dismiss the existence of a God ( the nipples thing is because male and female gender is not decided straight away btw)

The infallibility of God was created in the dogma surrounding religion, A God may well have designed a world to evolve with us as will continue to do so.

Evolution disproves The book of genesis emphatically though! If the first book of the bible is complete and utter tosh, then why are people expected to believe any of it!?

Explain.

Explain what?

If the bible is wrong about where we came from, why should we believe it in regards to where we are going?

We know how our planet was created, and we know how humans have evolved from single cells organisms. The story of Adam and Eve was written by men who knew practically nothing about evolution, why volcanoes erupt, why we have floods and storms etc. It is a primitive allegorical story, written at a time when civilization was still in its infancy.

Religion really is the opiate of the masses. I understand why people need religion, and it does serve a purpose. People are scared of dying and thats fair enough, but I would rather put every ounce of my time into enjoying this life, instead of wasting time dreaming about another life afterwards.

If you want to define your god as a first cause, then thats fine, but if you really think their is a divine creator, who takes an interest in humanity but who himself is a murderous , homophobic baby killer then you really are deluded.

Ps People who genuinely believe that the story of Adam and Eve is a realstic account of the creation of humanity, shouldnt be allowed to benefit from scientific discoveries. That Includes the internet and medicine and aeroplanes and TVs and cars and etc etc ad infinium.

Pps why are the religious so defensive when they have nothing to fear? You have god on your side apparently?

I have not once said "Evolution" did not happen. The only thing on Earth I am sure did not "Evolve" was mankind. All I have done is mock the idea that it happened without intelligence.

The reason I'm in this debate, is not because I fear anything, I don't fear death, I don't fear people telling me I'm wrong. I'm here because I feel the need to try explain my way of thinking to others, because that's what Jesus asked me to do. Wither its on the Net, or in the Pub, or at work, or at my part time college course, If people have an interest, then I'll discuss it.

"but I would rather put every ounce of my time into enjoying this life, instead of wasting time dreaming about another life afterwards "

So you are enjoying this?

[Jondaken]

If you want to deal with science vs religion then you are going to have to show facts in these big massive quotes and not some "new study" that "suggests" something.

Kind of ironic, being as religion has absolutely no facts or evidence to back up any of their claims.

The evidence in support of Evolution is OVERWHELMING

You missed the whole point completely. You are arguing against my "faith" with some of your "faith".

I'm not being ironic, you are being a hypocrite.

[Brumerican]

Ps As for the paper i copied about Apes being more evolved than humans. It was actually directed at someone else who mentioned that humans were top of the chain so to speak. I only posted it as a light hearted effort to suggest that monkeys are better than us! The article says nothing about evolution being incorrect. It only says that there is still lots to learn about the DIFFERENCE BETWEEN CHIMPS AND HUMANS.

For you to try and use that article as some kind of defence for your already piss poor argument is actually quite laughable. You clearly have very little understanding of science, the scientific method or basic evolutionary biology. Science isnt based on opinions. It is peer reviewed, and if its wrong it gets thrown out. Its actually polar opposite to religion, in that religion provides answers that cant be questioned.

Jondaken, honestly mate, do yourself a favour and just read up on basic evolution for a few weeks, even if only to stop embarrassing yourself.

[Brumerican]

If you want to deal with science vs religion then you are going to have to show facts in these big massive quotes and not some "new study" that "suggests" something.

Kind of ironic, being as religion has absolutely no facts or evidence to back up any of their claims.

The evidence in support of Evolution is OVERWHELMING

You missed the whole point completely. You are arguing against my "faith" with some of your "faith".

I'm not being ironic, you are being a hypocrite.

I dont need faith when I have evidence.

[Jondaken]

I'm out, you are contradicting yourself all over the place.

[Chindie]

I'm curious as to why Jondaken thinks we're an exceptional case as far as evolution goes, when all the evidence suggests that at our basis... we're made of the same stuff as everything else that in Jondakens own view, is evolved. Why aren't we then? God skip the queue and go for express delivery on us or something? Because when you can say, I dunno, pigs evolved, and then look at the very basis of their bodys, in cells and DNA, it's the same stuff as us, but then conclude we're different, is so illoogical as to be laughable. I understand the answer is going to be (to paraphrase) 'Because God did it', or the Bible said so... but come on, think about what you're saying.

[Jondaken]

I'm curious as to why Jondaken thinks we're an exceptional case as far as evolution goes, when all the evidence suggests that at our basis... we're made of the same stuff as everything else that in Jondakens own view, is evolved. Why aren't we then? God skip the queue and go for express delivery on us or something? Because when you can say, I dunno, pigs evolved, and then look at the very basis of their bodys, in cells and DNA, it's the same stuff as us, but then conclude we're different, is so illoogical as to be laughable. I understand the answer is going to be (to paraphrase) 'Because God did it', or the Bible said so... but come on, think about what you're saying.

Because the gap between out intelligence and everything else on this earth is astounding. I believe we have a soul, and the capacity to ponder life itself, and the stars, and how everything works, that's the difference.

These are just body's for our souls, spirit, w/e you want to call it. They do not go anywhere after we die.

Edit, sorry misunderstood and probably went off on a tangent. I believe I did not "evolve" because that's what I'm told in the bible. Wither it matters or not? I don't think it does. If God had decided that we were just to evolve like everything else, that would change nothing.

[Brumerican]

I'm out, you are contradicting yourself all over the place.

Just like the bible.

[BOF]

It's funny really. A lot of people in the 'science versus religion' argument think they are arguing one side against the other. When they're not. Strictly speaking, neither side knows for sure. So what they're really arguing is each side's willingness to find out the truth. Science is trying to find out whereas religion isn't. And that's where my problem lies with religion. It is a totally closed mind.

If, after science has found all the answers, it turns out God is sitting behind a door ready to go 'Boo', the religious people will say 'told you so' despite never trying to find out for sure. Science will not have been proven wrong, it will have done exactly what science does. It finds answers. Science is not trying to disprove God. It is trying to prove one way or the other. It doesn't care either way, it. just. wants. answers. It's just that zealots on the atheism side use science as their hope to disprove God whereas zealots on the religion side stick their fingers in their ears and shout 'la la la' whenever something new turns up. Safe that they have the 'faith' card every time.

If, on the other hand, science finds that there definitely is no God, I somehow doubt religion will accept this conclusion because religion is, as I said, a closed book resistant to change.

I'll stick with the open minds thanks.

[Brumerican]

Because the gap between out intelligence and everything else on this earth is astounding. I believe we have a soul, and the capacity to ponder life itself, and the stars, and how everything works, that's the difference.

These are just body's for our souls, spirit, w/e you want to call it. They do not go anywhere after we die.

And where is your evidence for this ?

[Jondaken]

Because the gap between out intelligence and everything else on this earth is astounding. I believe we have a soul, and the capacity to ponder life itself, and the stars, and how everything works, that's the difference.

These are just body's for our souls, spirit, w/e you want to call it. They do not go anywhere after we die.

And where is your evidence for this ?