The Players: Plenty of Blame to Go Around?

[osmark86]

I suppose there's always a minimum and maximum to an individual's abilities as a player and coaching will only get you so far. For what it's worth I think a lot of losses and poor performances tend to be down to individual mistakes or lapses in concentration. Things that hopefully could get coached away, but also is the result of split decisions these individuals have to make themselves. I've always believed that coaching is very important for developing patterns of play and making certain on pitch scenarios routine and second nature. It should facilitate and guide. But once the ball is in motion it's up to the players to stick to the plan, improvise to the best of their abilities and to stay focused and in the game mentally.

Personally I don't think our players are consistent enough (read: good enough) to get us to blistering heights. Some are error prone for whatever reasons. Some make odd decisions for whatever reasons. Some are overly passive for whatever reasons etc...

And I gotta say I kind of agree with @TRO here, if we see the same over and over regardless of the man in charge then that kind of points to the players. I hope we can improve recruitment now that we have a quality manager as you can really see what he is trying to achieve. But a chef can only cook with the available ingredients so to speak. Sure we can maybe max out with what we got, but to keep improving as a club we need better players imo.

 

Edited February 22, 2023 by osmark86

[bobzy]

2 hours ago, TRO said:

After 10 games....

Gerrard 13 pts......Emery  16 pts

Now, I think its widely accepted, that UE is a far superior manager....but the results are hardly much different.....The system has been changed, so its hard to blame that......there's not much left, to blame.

You're completely ignoring standard of opposition, though.

First 10 games of the season:  Bournemouth (A), Everton (H), Palace (A), West Ham (H), Arsenal (A), Man City (H), Southampton (H), Leeds (A), Forest (A), Chelsea (H)
Emery's first 10 games:  Man Utd (H), Brighton (A), Chelsea (H), Liverpool (H), Spurs (A), Wolves (H), Leeds (H), Southampton (A), Leicester (H), Man City (A)

Some cross over on teams played - where there is a difference, Emery has faced Man Utd, Brighton, Spurs, Liverpool, Wolves and Leicester compared to Gerrard facing Bournemouth, Everton, Palace, West Ham, Arsenal and Forest.

That's a very substantial step up in class where you'd expect fewer points to be gained, not more.

[The_Steve]

I am surprised McPhee hasn’t pulled his hair out when we lose our ability to close down opposition from set pieces. Watch the video of him on the bench after Zichencko scored. He was utterly apoplectic. 

[Keyblade]

1 hour ago, CVByrne said:

I think it's the comparison of the players performances between PE teacher and elite football manager. If the quality of the coaching doesn't yield improvement from the players then those players can't be improved and thus should be removed. 

Player performance has been much better across the board so I'm not sure what you're saying here. We're a much more threatening proposition for every team we face and aren't just flat track bullies anymore.

[CVByrne]

9 minutes ago, Keyblade said:

Player performance has been much better across the board so I'm not sure what you're saying here. We're a much more threatening proposition for every team we face and aren't just flat track bullies anymore.

Yes we score more and are more attacking team but we concede more. It's just a different approach to the more defensive set up Gerrard had in his opening fixtures. The results and performances were big improvements both under Gerrard and under Emery.

What matters now is the rest of the season performances. We know they became bad under Gerrard. I don't think they will be under Emery.

My point anyway is. We're judging the players now. Not Emery.

[osmark86]

24 minutes ago, The_Steve said:

I am surprised McPhee hasn’t pulled his hair out when we lose our ability to close down opposition from set pieces. Watch the video of him on the bench after Zichencko scored. He was utterly apoplectic. 

During the game I was thinking to myself that there is no way he would have instructed them not to close down the opposition from those positions. That we went on to make the same mistake three times in the same game did make me wonder though and I might have criticized the coaching in the match thread.

I missed his reaction from the game though, but good to hear that he seemed really pissed off about it. That would at least signal that he indeed does try to coach it and it will be addressed and players be reminded to do their goddam job defending corners.

 

Edited February 22, 2023 by osmark86

[thunderball]

We were given a lesson by Man City, but they looked very very good that day, and have since proved they are now playing at a very high level even for them - no shame in that.

Leicester was good and bad. But the good was very good and the bad was individual errors.

I thought we were pretty good vs Arsenal, and they have a settled quality that we dont, but we still looked good, had some good moments and despite being shaded in the second half and the hysteria of the two goals, could still have won the game in the final moments given the fine margins of luck (forget the final goal, that was a product of the 3rd goal). 

Our set piece defending needs work, but we are so much better as a team, and we can all see how thin our squad is and what few quality options we really have. I am delighted by Emery, and we are playing a whole new style of football that has an identity. We are in transition, it will take time and now is the time to find out who works in the system we play and who doesn't. We just need patience.

We have lost the last three - no points, but if we had beaten Leicester and drawn against Arsenal we would still be 11th today ie. our position in the table is no different. 

[DJBOB]

5 minutes ago, osmark86 said:

During the game I was thinking to myself that there is no way he would have instructed them not to close down the opposition from those positions. That we went on to make the same mistake three times in the same game did make me wonder though and I might have criticized the coaching in the match thread.

I missed his reaction from the game though, but good to hear that he seemed really pissed off about it. That would at least signal that he indeed does try to coach it and it will be addressed and players be reminded to do their goddam job defending corners.

 

McPhee might have the wrong set up. The setup itself doesn't make a lot of sense so I can see how it would be confusing to the players.

[CVByrne]

4 minutes ago, thunderball said:

We have lost the last three - no points, but if we had beaten Leicester and drawn against Arsenal we would still be 11th today ie. our position in the table is no different. 

Position in the table is pretty much irrelevant imo. What matters is performances. Do we see an upward trajectory in terms of performances. We all know we lack the players for building from the back to the standard required.

A new CB and RB from the ones we've used so far will transform that hopefully. Then we need a 3rd CM option who is real competition for Luiz/Kamara. One who can play RM or LM too would be perfect. Guendouzi perhaps. Finally another attacking option to play with Watkins.

We need to see the basis of a performing team that gives us confidence the new additions solve the problems and gaps we have. 

 

[osmark86]

7 minutes ago, DJBOB said:

McPhee might have the wrong set up. The setup itself doesn't make a lot of sense so I can see how it would be confusing to the players.

Could be that too, but would be odd given the reaction. Either way they have to sort this out because we're too vunerable at corners right now.

[thunderball]

27 minutes ago, CVByrne said:

Position in the table is pretty much irrelevant imo. What matters is performances. Do we see an upward trajectory in terms of performances. We all know we lack the players for building from the back to the standard required.

A new CB and RB from the ones we've used so far will transform that hopefully. Then we need a 3rd CM option who is real competition for Luiz/Kamara. One who can play RM or LM too would be perfect. Guendouzi perhaps. Finally another attacking option to play with Watkins.

We need to see the basis of a performing team that gives us confidence the new additions solve the problems and gaps we have. 

 

This.

FWIW, I though Cash was OK on the weekend but know we need better output/delivery/consistency.

[The_Steve]

1 hour ago, osmark86 said:

During the game I was thinking to myself that there is no way he would have instructed them not to close down the opposition from those positions. That we went on to make the same mistake three times in the same game did make me wonder though and I might have criticized the coaching in the match thread.

I missed his reaction from the game though, but good to hear that he seemed really pissed off about it. That would at least signal that he indeed does try to coach it and it will be addressed and players be reminded to do their goddam job defending corners.

 

Here’s the clip. He’s absolutely livid

 

 

[The_Steve]

1 hour ago, DJBOB said:

McPhee might have the wrong set up. The setup itself doesn't make a lot of sense so I can see how it would be confusing to the players.

To be fair, they are playing at the highest level and should be able to follow instructions like close the man down at a short corner. It happens way too often and I put the fault at the players for switching off far too easily. 

[TRO]

4 hours ago, Laughable Chimp said:

Also pretty sure your maths is wrong. Both were on 16 points after 10 league games.

yep your right, thanks.

[TRO]

4 hours ago, osmark86 said:

I suppose there's always a minimum and maximum to an individual's abilities as a player and coaching will only get you so far. For what it's worth I think a lot of losses and poor performances tend to be down to individual mistakes or lapses in concentration. Things that hopefully could get coached away, but also is the result of split decisions these individuals have to make themselves. I've always believed that coaching is very important for developing patterns of play and making certain on pitch scenarios routine and second nature. It should facilitate and guide. But once the ball is in motion it's up to the players to stick to the plan, improvise to the best of their abilities and to stay focused and in the game mentally.

Personally I don't think our players are consistent enough (read: good enough) to get us to blistering heights. Some are error prone for whatever reasons. Some make odd decisions for whatever reasons. Some are overly passive for whatever reasons etc...

And I gotta say I kind of agree with @TRO here, if we see the same over and over regardless of the man in charge then that kind of points to the players. I hope we can improve recruitment now that we have a quality manager as you can really see what he is trying to achieve. But a chef can only cook with the available ingredients so to speak. Sure we can maybe max out with what we got, but to keep improving as a club we need better players imo.

 

spot on.

[TRO]

4 hours ago, bobzy said:

You're completely ignoring standard of opposition, though.

First 10 games of the season:  Bournemouth (A), Everton (H), Palace (A), West Ham (H), Arsenal (A), Man City (H), Southampton (H), Leeds (A), Forest (A), Chelsea (H)
Emery's first 10 games:  Man Utd (H), Brighton (A), Chelsea (H), Liverpool (H), Spurs (A), Wolves (H), Leeds (H), Southampton (A), Leicester (H), Man City (A)

Some cross over on teams played - where there is a difference, Emery has faced Man Utd, Brighton, Spurs, Liverpool, Wolves and Leicester compared to Gerrard facing Bournemouth, Everton, Palace, West Ham, Arsenal and Forest.

That's a very substantial step up in class where you'd expect fewer points to be gained, not more.

I was comparing their first 10 games with Aston Villa.....not the first 10 games of this season.

they inc Man city, Leicester, Liverpool,Chelsea and Man U...so SG had it tough too.

both got 16 pts.

What follows under Unai, is crystal Ball territory.

Edited February 22, 2023 by TRO

[Tom13]

I really am no expert on defensive positioning, but this looks awful to me? Just before Jorginho hit it for their third.

You have Digne with three men at the back post, four men around Vieira and Odegaard. Two men on Martinelli, with extra support from Dendoncker, and then any midfield runners (Jorginho in this example) completely free to run in.

Edited February 23, 2023 by Tom13

[FLVillan]

4 minutes ago, Tom13 said:

I'm no expert on defensive positioning, but this looks awful to me? Just before Jorginho hit it for their third.

Always difficult to assess from a freeze-frame, but, Ouch.  They have six players in the box and we have eight.  Only McGinn and Digne actually seem to be doing what they're supposed to be.  Konsa, Mings, Dendonker and Ramsey all ball watching (Konsa and Mings on their heels too) with no sense of where opponents are.  Kamara wrong-side.  Digne seems to be the only one with a sense of where to be, albeit he's having to track their centre-forward and keep an eye on Saka at the same time.  McGinn has done a decent job to stop him going down the outside, but Cash should be stepping up, not back on his heels.  The fact that 5 Villa players are basically within touching distance of each other, while Odegard runs past/behind with a further two completely un-tracked is awful.   In all of this I'd say Bailey, McGinn and Digne are the only ones in good positions and doing what they should be doing (ie. tracking players, not standing in space).  

Always told my team, space can't score a goal, players score goals.  

[ozvillafan]

1 hour ago, Tom13 said:

I really am no expert on defensive positioning, but this looks awful to me? Just before Jorginho hit it for their third.

You have Digne with three men at the back post, four men around Vieira and Odegaard. Two men on Martinelli, with extra support from Dendoncker, and then any midfield runners (Jorginho in this example) completely free to run in.

Sign 1 that your central defenders aren't doing their job: When they are drawn to the ball and off their man.

Konsa is marking no-one - may as well replace him with those cut-outs they use when practicing free-kicks.

Mings is on the wrong man and completely unaware of what is behind him because he's too far forward- since he's been drawn towards the ball.

Anyone remember Dunne and Collins? They used to get opened up easily because Collins was always drawn to the ball (and then doing last ditch slide tackles) which left Dunne trying to cover both positions.

In this picture, it's Digne trying to cover that position.

[DJBOB]

A freeze frame can be deceptive - and one of the things that can’t be underestimated is that this is still a team young in its inception (Unai’s 10th game) but also youthful all around. While this can be good - there’s a reason the center defensive mids are usually the more experienced one.

Just before the clip above, Zinchenko releases Martinelli and it actually looks well covered. Villa are defending in a 532 with Mcginn playing as a wingback and Donkey, Kamara, JJ in the middle. Mings looks over his shoulder and points at the space behind but looks back at the ball and no one seems to hear him. 

Crucially, if they had stayed in this shape, they would have it well covered. But it’s the 92nd minute, Kamara is gassed - JJ and Dendonker are substitutes and none of the midfield communicate. Kamara continues drifting inside inexplicably, JJ never looks away from the ball and marks no one and Dendonker keeps dropping deeper to quadruple mark one player. 
 
9/10 times, defense is a series of failures and too often we have multiple players just unaware of their responsibilities and no one taking command.