The Players: Plenty of Blame to Go Around?

[The_Steve]

2 minutes ago, duke313 said:

I think that's a reasonable amount over the next two windows.  We need to recruit less weak-minded players, hopefully Emery has this in mind.

Mentality is everything, and a serial winner like Unai knows what is needed. I think 3 names per window tops, perhaps with some youth integration means the squad has enough quality and rotation that we can better weed out the crap without having to rely on them as much. 

[Laughable Chimp]

13 hours ago, markavfc40 said:

Whilst I can totally appreciate what you are saying I think another way of putting it would be that we are being patient. I too think that at times, especially the last two games that there has been too much sideways/backwards passing, but I guess what we are trying to do is retain possession whilst trying to carve out an opening. The trouble has been that our creative players haven't off the back of this patient approach threaded through too many defensive splitting passes or that the likes of Bailey haven't gone down the wings or got in behind and put in chance creating crosses.

As disappointed as I was with yesterday and with the first half against Wolves I can at least take solace in the fact I can see what we are trying to do under Emery whereas under his predecessor I didn't have a clue.  Yesterday we had 80% possession, against Wolves just under 60%. With that amount of possession you'd think we would have carved out more chances than we did but the trouble is the players that you'd expect to - Coutinho, Buendia, Bailey are all off it at the moment. 

I wouldn't expect Emery to be throwing the baby out with the bath water though and wouldn't expect, or want, him to rethink what he is trying to implement. Given the limited time he has been here the fact he has made us a side now able to keep possession much better is some going. Off the back of that possession and patient approach though you clearly need your creative players to provide those moments and create those good chances. If those within the squad can't then I am under zero doubt they will soon be replaced.

I am confident we will get there eventually but it will take a lot more work on the training ground, two or three transfer windows and there are likely to be a lot of in game hiccups and disappointments along the way.

I don't know if people remember, but this isn't really any different to how we were under Gerrard at the start of the season. We had a lot of posession, just couldn't carve out any chances for whatever reason.

Edited January 10, 2023 by Laughable Chimp

[The_Steve]

It’s still only been 2 months. The players who will be off are very content to stick to what they know and I look forward to the harsh wake-up call that’s coming their way eventually. 

[Mark_1989]

1 minute ago, CVByrne said:

Lose to Leeds and we need to replace more players than we thought 

I think we already know a bunch need replacing, first out the starting 11 needs to be Watkins and Bailey. Feel sorry for any manager having lofty targets when we carry the garbage we do in the squad.

Emery will get it right! 

[avfc1982am]

I'd start to rip apart this squad if I was Emery. Imo only Martinez, Luiz, Kamara, Young, Ramsey, Ing's and Mings are the only players worthy of representing this club currently. Carlos may add to that list eventually but who knows how he will be on his return. Everybody else imo is dispensable and easily replaceable. 

I want to give Bailey and Buendia a pass currently but if either doesn't improve hugely on recent performances I'd listen to offers for these also. 

[Risso]

It's the mentality of the club that needs to change first. This set of players isn't good enough for anything other than mid table or below, and yet we've tinkered around the edges for two years now. The process for starting to rebuild should have begun in earnest this January. Instead, we're left with almost exactly the same bunch of weak-willed individuals as before. Watch the panic really start to set in if Everton beat us at the weekend.

[TRO]

On 01/09/2022 at 13:45, DJBOB said:

It will be funny, in a way, when Gerrard goes and it’s as if the players magically learned how to play again. 

A squad assembled north of 200 million that can’t do the basics or a manager so out of his depth that he’s got them in an awful system that hampers them?

We had a lineup of Watkins, Traore, and El Ghazi as well as Sanson, Mcginn, and Luiz in behind that had more fluidity than the current setup. And somehow it’s the fault of these much more talented players?

Rubbish. 

After 10 games....

Gerrard 16 pts......Emery  16 pts

Now, I think its widely accepted, that UE is a far superior manager....but the results are the same....The system has been changed, so its hard to blame that......there's not much left, to blame.

 

Edited February 22, 2023 by TRO

[TRO]

23 hours ago, Risso said:

It's the mentality of the club that needs to change first. This set of players isn't good enough for anything other than mid table or below, and yet we've tinkered around the edges for two years now. The process for starting to rebuild should have begun in earnest this January. Instead, we're left with almost exactly the same bunch of weak-willed individuals as before. Watch the panic really start to set in if Everton beat us at the weekend.

I think you are spot on......In the same way Brentford changed, from this lilly livered, mid championship bridesmaid, to a resolute hard to play against, warrior, with a sting.

The type of player, who can help with this is being overlooked of dismissed......We just seem to want to sign wingers, or winger types, because due to their inconsistent nature, they are easy to buy....they are easy targets, to source.

We need a General, who can play with purpose, and its hard for clubs to release them.

Edited February 22, 2023 by TRO

[nick76]

3 minutes ago, TRO said:

After 10 games....

Gerrard 13 pts......Emery  16 pts

Now, I think its widely accepted, that UE is a far superior manager....but the results are hardly much different.....The system has been changed, so its hard to blame that......there's not much left, to blame.

 

I completely agree about the players, mentality and skill set….I think you and I are on the same page.  16 points from 10 games isn’t bad though, over 38 games that’s 61 points which is a good output for this squad so it’s hard to say blame when that really is expectation for the quality of this squad.  

We need more quality in the squad, better mentality but as always the devil is in the detail from silly mistakes, fragile and everything else but 16 points from this squad in 10 games is about average of what I could expect.

[DJBOB]

28 minutes ago, TRO said:

After 10 games....

Gerrard 13 pts......Emery  16 pts

Now, I think its widely accepted, that UE is a far superior manager....but the results are hardly much different.....The system has been changed, so its hard to blame that......there's not much left, to blame.

 

Hardly going to draw conclusion from 10 games. 

After all, around 15 games - I think everyone was still okay with Gerrard with his mini run.

It was the subsequent rest of season and beginning of the next that cemented Gerrard had no idea what he was doing. 

[TRO]

6 hours ago, nick76 said:

I completely agree about the players, mentality and skill set….I think you and I are on the same page.  16 points from 10 games isn’t bad though, over 38 games that’s 61 points which is a good output for this squad so it’s hard to say blame when that really is expectation for the quality of this squad.  

We need more quality in the squad, better mentality but as always the devil is in the detail from silly mistakes, fragile and everything else but 16 points from this squad in 10 games is about average of what I could expect.

That wasn't my point Nick, because you are right imo 16 points is ok......its the similarity in points between a seasoned experienced elite manager and a rookie......surely that suggests something, could be other than manager, issue.

UE is clearly angry, because the players are not doing as they are told, in terms of the game plan.....they either can't do it or just default back to type.

I will never turn my nose up to quality, but I think we need more character and a willingness or appetite to engage in a fight for the ball...we need to dominate the ball and not give it away so cheaply.....I am unsure we have got that in us, as a group.

 

 

Edited February 22, 2023 by TRO

[TRO]

1 hour ago, DJBOB said:

Hardly going to draw conclusion from 10 games. 

After all, around 15 games - I think everyone was still okay with Gerrard with his mini run.

It was the subsequent rest of season and beginning of the next that cemented Gerrard had no idea what he was doing. 

Conclusions, maybe not......but suspicions, maybe.

I am not going to argue a case for Gerrard, he's gone....but many of the traits still exist, just as they did after Dean Smith.......so are you saying? between 15 games and 40 Gerrard lost his way, ok...I guess losing his 2 main signings, had a say in that too, don't you think.and not investing anymore, must have had an impact.....just thinking out loud.Some could say, that rendered the team a Dean Smith team in a certain context.

I watch the games like we all do.....and I see us lose games after going ahead, in the a similar manner as I did under Gerrard and Smith.....I see similar traits in our play, like at set pieces, and a failure to pick up opponents on the edge of the box like Ward Prowse, Maddison and Jorginho....I saw similar things under the previous 2 managers.

I see a change of system now under UE....but I still see similar flaws under previous systems employed by prior managers.

I am not suggesting 10 games is not a small sample size, but in that 10 games, there has been some quite contrasting performances.....as an example...Spurs & Brighton away, highlighted a stark difference/contrast from Leicester, Man City and Arsenal, not to mention Stevenage.

I just think it all needs, a bit more examination.

 

Edited February 22, 2023 by TRO

[TRO]

1 hour ago, TRO said:

That wasn't my point Nick, because you are right imo 16 points is ok......its the disparity in points between a seasoned experienced elite manager and a rookie, is minimal at this early stage of 10 games.....surely that suggests something, could be other than manager, issue.

UE is clearly angry, because the players are not doing as they are told, in terms of the game plan.....they either can't do it or just default back to type.

I will never turn my nose up to quality, but I think we need more character and a willingness or appetite to engage in a fight for the ball...we need to dominate the ball and not give it away so cheaply.....I am unsure we have got that in us, as a group.

 

 

seems the ignore button has failed, like VAR....Not you Nick.

Edited February 22, 2023 by TRO

[DJBOB]

5 minutes ago, TRO said:

Conclusions, maybe not......but suspicions, maybe.

I am not going to argue a case for Gerrard, he's gone....but many of the traits still exist, just as they did after Dean Smith.

I watch the games like we all do.....and I see us lose games after going ahead, in the a similar manner as I did under Gerrard and Smith.....I see similar traits in our play, like at set pieces, and a failure to pick up opponents on the edge of the box like Ward Prowse, Maddison and Jorginho....I saw similar things under the previous 2 managers.

I see a change of system now under UE....but I still see similar flaws under previous systems employed by prior managers.

I am not suggesting 10 games is not a small sample size, but in that 10 games, there has been some quite contrasting performances.....as an example...Spurs & Brighton away, highlighted a stark difference from Leicester, Man City and Arsenal, not to mention Stevenage.

 

I think for sure there are improvements to be made in the squad. They are currently are a mid table side punching up under hood form but under Gerrard was clearly pointing to relegation. 
 
Other threads have highlighted needs in different positions though I disagree with the mythical “General” position. They just need good players, full stop. 

[romavillan]

1 hour ago, Sulberto21 said:

The style of play is night and day . 

It's even more stark a contrast to the eleven randoms bunged in a shirt and shoved on the pitch Bruceball to what Smith did with the same players. I really fail to understand how some people don't see it.

[CVByrne]

1 hour ago, Tomaszk said:

And what's your point?

The proof of the players is in how they perform in the next 5/6 games after their first blip post the new manager bounce. 

There are only two things we are measuring.

1) The players improve and performances improve.

2) They don't and the number of players who need to be replaced increases. 

We already know Emery is an elite manager. That has already been proven. 

Edited February 22, 2023 by CVByrne

[TRO]

19 minutes ago, DJBOB said:

I think for sure there are improvements to be made in the squad. They are currently are a mid table side punching up under hood form but under Gerrard was clearly pointing to relegation. 
 
Other threads have highlighted needs in different positions though I disagree with the mythical “General” position. They just need good players, full stop. 

Then we disagree......but we spent, c£100 mill on 3 players, was they not good enough?

"Good Players" is a broad brush, and it is not specific enough, to formulate a thought process for debate....It could be argued, That in Terry, Grealish and Abraham, they was better players, than we have now, 4 years on.

I am not trying to be negative or argumentative.....just merely examining, why we are still struggling to break in to that top 10 after 4 years, when other teams with arguably less resource, is making a fist of it.....we all look to the transfer windows for solace, but it seems that we struggle to make that leap of improvement.

Many things have changed since we came up, and for the good, but some not so good things haven't and remain the same or similar......I am merely attempting to stimulate debate as to why.

I don't profess to know the answers, but I have a bunch of suspicions and I don't really want to go with the Status Quo.

I think it all boils down to our individual ambitions....midtable is better than a relegation zone, but do we want more than that?

Edited February 22, 2023 by TRO

[DJBOB]

Just now, TRO said:

Then we disagree.

"Good Players" is a broad brush, and it is not specific enough, to formulate a thought process for debate....It could be argued, That in Terry, Grealish and Abraham, they was better players, than we have now, 4 years on.

I am not trying to be negative or argumentative.....just merely examining, why we are still struggling to break in to that top 10 after 4 years, when other teams with arguably less resource, is making a fist of it.....we all look to the transfer windows for solace, but it seems that we struggle to make that leap of improvement.

Many things have changed since we came up, and for the good, but some not so good things haven't and remain the same or similar......I am merely attempting to stimulate debate as to why.

I don't profess to know the answers, but I have a bunch of suspicions and I don't really want to go with the Status Quo.

I think it all boils down to our individual ambitions....midtable is better than a relegation zone, but do we want more than that?

There’s a litany of reasons why we haven’t broke through. You could point to managerial mismanagement - Deano to Gerrard was two years lost into the wilderness. 
 
You could point to 4 ineffective transfer windows. From the Grealish sell onwards, we haven’t improved the squad with “good” players  

You could point to poor scouting and lack of youth development. Another lack of “good” players. 
 
From the top (CEO, Scouting, Admin) to the management (head coach and trainers) to the bottom (players and youth), the club need all 3 working in unison. 
 
And since promotion, we haven’t. We didn’t get it right with the Grealish funds and Gerrard appointment. 
 
We hope we get it right with Unai and the subsequent players coming in afterwards. 
 

[TRO]

2 minutes ago, DJBOB said:

There’s a litany of reasons why we haven’t broke through. You could point to managerial mismanagement - Deano to Gerrard was two years lost into the wilderness. 
 
You could point to 4 ineffective transfer windows. From the Grealish sell onwards, we haven’t improved the squad with “good” players  

You could point to poor scouting and lack of youth development. Another lack of “good” players. 
 
From the top (CEO, Scouting, Admin) to the management (head coach and trainers) to the bottom (players and youth), the club need all 3 working in unison. 
 
And since promotion, we haven’t. We didn’t get it right with the Grealish funds and Gerrard appointment. 
 
We hope we get it right with Unai and the subsequent players coming in afterwards. 
 

I accept your reasoning...so looks like we have a lot of work to do.

[Laughable Chimp]

2 hours ago, TRO said:

After 10 games....

Gerrard 13 pts......Emery  16 pts

Now, I think its widely accepted, that UE is a far superior manager....but the results are hardly much different.....The system has been changed, so its hard to blame that......there's not much left, to blame.

 

Also pretty sure your maths is wrong. Both were on 16 points after 10 league games.