Rightdm00 Posted February 5, 2022 Share Posted February 5, 2022 Just now, sidcow said: It makes zero sense for a player to sign a 5 year deal with a club. What if he has a stormer in his first year and wants to play for Real Madrid at £400k per week I stead? What if he doesn't like the club after he's signed? I struggle to see the benefit for the player is signing a long term contract. Not even remotely the same. What is the benefit to the player to negotiate 2 deals at the same time? Why would Coutinho not just wait til the summer? He already has a deal with Barcelona so it's not like he won't get paid. This is why players have agents because so they don't do dumb things like remove their negotiating leverage for "reasons." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
penguin Posted February 5, 2022 Share Posted February 5, 2022 34 minutes ago, Rightdm00 said: No. That would be a player negotiating his current deal and future one at the same time. Coutinho already has a deal with us that expires at the end of the season. Why would he not just wait til the summer to negotiate his next deal? This would be assuming they are completely separate deals, which would I would doubt personally. For your final sentence, sure it would suit the player more, but on the other hand why would the club have an option to buy and have no pre-agreed terms with the player? Terrible negotiating position if he has an absolute stormer. Ultimately we no idea what the contract is with him, it’s a negotiation to suit both parties so to me common sense would say there are already numerous terms and conditions pre-agreed with him if we choose to purchase, likely with wiggle room for the player dependant on performance etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Albrighton Posted February 5, 2022 VT Supporter Share Posted February 5, 2022 8 minutes ago, tomav84 said: the point of having an option to buy clause, is that coutinho essentially already has agreed a permanent contract with us we just get to choose whether or not it is turned permanent I don’t think that’s guaranteed. I think ultimately the player holds the power and if we somehow found ourselves in a situation where Villa wanted to take up the option but Coutinho didn’t want to join, he wouldn’t. It might be agreed in principle, I don’t doubt that. It might be agreed that Villa would pay him £150 grand a week on a four year deal. A gentleman’s agreement of sorts. But I don’t think he would be obligated to sign at the end of his loan. Ultimately I don’t think we’re going to find out either way. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A'Villan Posted February 5, 2022 Share Posted February 5, 2022 I don't know what made me sadder. The hope of signing Coutinho back when he was at Inter and we offered a higher fee to Liverpool's lower fee of 8 odd million pounds, which came in after our offer, only for him to opt for them. Or the fact it's 2:30am and I'm contemplating a scenario that is inconsequential as he is currently our player and I can enjoy that for another solid number of months to come. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rightdm00 Posted February 5, 2022 Share Posted February 5, 2022 Just now, penguin said: This would be assuming they are completely separate deals, which would I would doubt personally. For your final sentence, sure it would suit the player more, but on the other hand why would the club have an option to buy and have no pre-agreed terms with the player? Terrible negotiating position if he has an absolute stormer. Ultimately we no idea what the contract is with him, it’s a negotiation to suit both parties so to me common sense would say there are already numerous terms and conditions pre-agreed with him if we choose to purchase, likely with wiggle room for the player dependant on performance etc. They are completely separate. When you transfer a player the buying club has to negotiate with 2 completely different parties. The player and the selling club. They arent a package deal. When you give a club a transfer fee you are paying for the registration of that player. Then in a completely separate deal you negotiate a contract with the same player. If you fail to agree terms with either party the transfer collapses. When you see the word "buy" that is a deal between 2 clubs. Clubs can agree a set fee. It happens hundreds of times in every transfer window. Unless the player owns part of his registration he is not part of any negotiation of transfer fees. The agreed deal is between Barcelona and Aston Villa. Now Villa can choose to pre-negotiate a contract with the player but it is not a requirement for 2 clubs to agree on a "buy" option. Anyone stating otherwise just has a massive misunderstanding of how the transfer process works. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidcow Posted February 5, 2022 VT Supporter Share Posted February 5, 2022 (edited) 15 minutes ago, Rightdm00 said: Not even remotely the same. What is the benefit to the player to negotiate 2 deals at the same time? Why would Coutinho not just wait til the summer? He already has a deal with Barcelona so it's not like he won't get paid. This is why players have agents because so they don't do dumb things like remove their negotiating leverage for "reasons." Because in the summer he won't have played for another 6 months. Why are people so steadfastly convinced these deals don't exist? He has effectively signed a long term deal with us. If we don't like it after 6 months he goes back to his current extremely lucrative deal at the club he's desperate to get away from. Just because he's a global superstar doesn't change how contract conditions work. Admittedly he wouldn't have ever agreed to this with us if it wasn't for Gerrard but he's agreed to this contract condition as have many many other players before him. Edited February 5, 2022 by sidcow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rightdm00 Posted February 5, 2022 Share Posted February 5, 2022 13 minutes ago, Mark Albrighton said: I don’t think that’s guaranteed. I think ultimately the player holds the power and if we somehow found ourselves in a situation where Villa wanted to take up the option but Coutinho didn’t want to join, he wouldn’t. It might be agreed in principle, I don’t doubt that. It might be agreed that Villa would pay him £150 grand a week on a four year deal. A gentleman’s agreement of sorts. But I don’t think he would be obligated to sign at the end of his loan. Ultimately I don’t think we’re going to find out either way. Yes. At best it's a handshake deal. Putting pen to paper would be negligence of the highest order from Countinho's agent. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sparrow1988 Posted February 5, 2022 Share Posted February 5, 2022 I hear that there isn't even a clause in the contract... 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidcow Posted February 5, 2022 VT Supporter Share Posted February 5, 2022 1 minute ago, sparrow1988 said: I hear that there isn't even a clause in the contract... Well there might as well not be according to some. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rightdm00 Posted February 5, 2022 Share Posted February 5, 2022 1 minute ago, sidcow said: Because in the summer he won't have played for another 6 months. Why are people so steadfastly convinced these deals don't exist? He has effectively signed a long term deal with us. If we don't like it after 6 months he goes back to his current extremely lucrative deal at the club he's desperate to get away from. Just because he's a global superstar doesn't change how contract conditions work. Admittedly he wouldn't have ever agreed to this with us if it wasn't for Gerrard but he's agreed to this contract condition as have many many other players before him. He is playing now under a contract. He already has a short term deal with Villa and his original deal with Barcelona. You are suggesting that he haa signed a 3rd deal before even kicking a ball for Villa which would remove all future negotiating leverage for the player and place all the power with Villa. Why? 2 clubs can agree a fee on a future deal with or without a pre-contract with the player involved. You seem to see the 2 deals as a package when their is no requirement that it be done that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidcow Posted February 5, 2022 VT Supporter Share Posted February 5, 2022 Just now, Rightdm00 said: He is playing now under a contract. He already has a short term deal with Villa and his original deal with Barcelona. You are suggesting that he haa signed a 3rd deal before even kicking a ball for Villa which would remove all future negotiating leverage for the player and place all the power with Villa. Why? 2 clubs can agree a fee on a future deal with or without a pre-contract with the player involved. You seem to see the 2 deals as a package when their is no requirement that it be done that way. Why isn't he just here on a 6 month loan? Why? No fictitious not worth the paper it's written on "option apparently to buy" clause. Why isn't it just a straightforward loan. In fact why would any agent allow such a thing to be even referenced in the contract? Seems a silly thing to be allowed in if he wants every avenue left open. The only form of loan that would exist would be standard normal loans in this world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
penguin Posted February 5, 2022 Share Posted February 5, 2022 19 minutes ago, Rightdm00 said: They are completely separate. When you transfer a player the buying club has to negotiate with 2 completely different parties. The player and the selling club. They arent a package deal. When you give a club a transfer fee you are paying for the registration of that player. Then in a completely separate deal you negotiate a contract with the same player. If you fail to agree terms with either party the transfer collapses. When you see the word "buy" that is a deal between 2 clubs. Clubs can agree a set fee. It happens hundreds of times in every transfer window. Unless the player owns part of his registration he is not part of any negotiation of transfer fees. The agreed deal is between Barcelona and Aston Villa. Now Villa can choose to pre-negotiate a contract with the player but it is not a requirement for 2 clubs to agree on a "buy" option. Anyone stating otherwise just has a massive misunderstanding of how the transfer process works. OK? I’m talking “completely separate” as in if his terms with us now contain absolutely no pre-agreed terms, even if loose, for if we exercise our option to buy. Unless this is a contractual impossibility we are all just speculating, despite your conviction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sne Posted February 5, 2022 Share Posted February 5, 2022 23 minutes ago, sparrow1988 said: I hear that there isn't even a clause in the contract... 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rightdm00 Posted February 5, 2022 Share Posted February 5, 2022 7 minutes ago, sidcow said: Why isn't he just here on a 6 month loan? Why? No fictitious not worth the paper it's written on "option apparently to buy" clause. Why isn't it just a straightforward loan. In fact why would any agent allow such a thing to be even referenced in the contract? Seems a silly thing to be allowed in if he wants every avenue left open. The only form of loan that would exist would be standard normal loans in this world. The option to buy is an agreement between two football clubs. It's a set fee agreed upon that if paid will trigger the the players registration moving from the selling club to the buying club. That is the agreement. The players contract is a wholly separate deal. When his registration moves his current contract with his selling club is cancelled and then it is on the the buying club to agree a new deal. Could a player negotiate a pre-contract, sure, but it is by no means a requirement. Countinho's agent is one of the best in the business. He did not get there by negotiating poor deals. Whatever deal has been agreed will give Coutinho a say this summer on his next destination. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidcow Posted February 5, 2022 VT Supporter Share Posted February 5, 2022 4 minutes ago, Rightdm00 said: The option to buy is an agreement between two football clubs. It's a set fee agreed upon that if paid will trigger the the players registration moving from the selling club to the buying club. That is the agreement. The players contract is a wholly separate deal. When his registration moves his current contract with his selling club is cancelled and then it is on the the buying club to agree a new deal. Could a player negotiate a pre-contract, sure, but it is by no means a requirement. Countinho's agent is one of the best in the business. He did not get there by negotiating poor deals. Whatever deal has been agreed will give Coutinho a say this summer on his next destination. Well we're going to have to disagree. That's not my understanding at all, but it's clearly yours and we're not going to change each others minds so I'll duck out of this now. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonLax Posted February 5, 2022 Share Posted February 5, 2022 1 hour ago, Rightdm00 said: The option to buy is an agreement between two football clubs. It's a set fee agreed upon that if paid will trigger the the players registration moving from the selling club to the buying club. That is the agreement. The players contract is a wholly separate deal. When his registration moves his current contract with his selling club is cancelled and then it is on the the buying club to agree a new deal. Could a player negotiate a pre-contract, sure, but it is by no means a requirement. Countinho's agent is one of the best in the business. He did not get there by negotiating poor deals. Whatever deal has been agreed will give Coutinho a say this summer on his next destination. Yes, we have negotiated a 1 way binding agreement between the two clubs i.e. we can can chose to trigger the transfer or not and Barcelona have no say. I don’t believe for a second that we have a one way agreement with the player as well. The player will still have a say as to where his next contract is. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidcow Posted February 5, 2022 VT Supporter Share Posted February 5, 2022 9 minutes ago, LondonLax said: Yes, we have negotiated a 1 way binding agreement between the two clubs i.e. we can can chose to trigger the transfer or not and Barcelona have no say. I don’t believe for a second that we have a one way agreement with the player as well. The player will still have a say as to where his next contract is. So it's an option to negotiate deal only. Someone should inform the Villa media team. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonLax Posted February 5, 2022 Share Posted February 5, 2022 3 minutes ago, sidcow said: So it's an option to negotiate deal only. Someone should inform the Villa media team. No it’s an option to buy from Barcelona that Barcelona can’t refuse. The media team will sell that all the way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonLax Posted February 5, 2022 Share Posted February 5, 2022 Ultimately I think it’s a moot point anyway because he will willingly sign a contract with us when we buy him from Barcelona. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xela Posted February 5, 2022 Share Posted February 5, 2022 Lets see how he performs for a few months first hey Ultimately none of us know the exact details so its not worth worrying about this early. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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