The manager situation

[nick76]

2 minutes ago, foreveryoung said:

We can't continue to have a poor run every season Nick, it's losing us valuable points. Points that may have got us European football last season. Somethings gotta change, an it always comes back to the manager going unfortunately.

Season after promotion we avoided relegation, second season we added 20 points to the previous seasons total.  I see that as huge! You see that as fail because we dropped points to get European place.  20 points more than the prior season is huge in the toughest league in the world.  I didn’t think we had a squad good enough to get an European place last season and I still don’t think we have one this season.

We just see things differently.  Smith stays imo!

[tinker]

5 minutes ago, foreveryoung said:

We can't continue to have a poor run every season Nick, it's losing us valuable points. Points that may have got us European football last season. Somethings gotta change, an it always comes back to the manager going unfortunately.

Look at our progress season on season, it's good if not exceptional. We can't pick a short sample of games and decide to change management from those games. It has to be a measured controlled move based on more data than 5 games offer...like a season. 

[nick76]

Just now, foreveryoung said:

This is fine and I agree. But your also saying you believe he will turn it around, an state this as a reason to keep him on.

But you think he won’t and the reason he should go!  We just see the future differently.

Anyway I left the platform a few weeks back for a bit and popped my head in tonight silly me but I’m out again now because the discussion goes around in circles

[jacketspuds]

38 minutes ago, Tayls said:

Teams making moves. Looks like we will be sat on our hands again until it’s probably too late to recover. 

If by teams making moves you mean Howe to Newcastle and Lampard to Norwich then I’m glad we’re sat on our hands.

If our options to replace Smith are those two I hope Purslow and Lange are dragged out of the club by their gonads.

[foreveryoung]

1 minute ago, nick76 said:

Season after promotion we avoided relegation, second season we added 20 points to the previous seasons total.  I see that as huge! You see that as fail because we dropped points to get European place.  20 points more than the prior season is huge in the toughest league in the world.  I didn’t think we had a squad good enough to get an European place last season and I still don’t think we have one this season.

We just see things differently.  Smith stays imo!

An if we finish midtable this season, which you claim, it will be disappointing, knowing if we hadn't had a poor run yet again, we would have finished higher. it cannot continue.

[IrishVilla10]

1 minute ago, tinker said:

Look at our progress season on season, it's good if not exceptional. We can't pick a short sample of games and decide to change management from those games. It has to be a measured controlled move based on more data than 5 games offer...like a season. 

Like the 18 defeats in 2021?

[foreveryoung]

4 minutes ago, tinker said:

Look at our progress season on season, it's good if not exceptional. We can't pick a short sample of games and decide to change management from those games. It has to be a measured controlled move based on more data than 5 games offer...like a season. 

It's not just 5 games, I will let someone else quote the stats. As above.

Edited November 6, 2021 by foreveryoung

[nick76]

10 minutes ago, IrishVilla10 said:

Dean has had to turn it around three seasons in a row now, that’s the difference. That’s where the ship has sailed. We will not progress when we can’t perform for a full season.

Is that the same Dean that got promotion in that first season, in the second season rebuilt a team and avoided relegation and then third season added 20 points to the previous seasons points total…a bit of context to your comment makes what looks bad to something that looks exceptional by any standard.  Three seasons of massive improvement!

 

Anyway I’m done for tonight and likely for a few weeks at least on this board! Always gets a bit mental on here either way!

Edited November 6, 2021 by nick76

[PaulC]

4 minutes ago, nick76 said:

But you think he won’t and the reason he should go!  We just see the future differently.

Anyway I left the platform a few weeks back for a bit and popped my head in tonight silly me but I’m out again now because the discussion goes around in circles

If bad luck was the reason for the losses then I would say stick with him but its more than that and its obvious to see. 

[IrishVilla10]

8 minutes ago, nick76 said:

Is that the same Dean that got promotion in that first season, in the second season rebuilt a team and avoided relegation and then third season added 20 points to the previous seasons points total…a bit of context to your comment makes what looks bad to something that looks exceptional by any standard.  Three seasons of massive improvement!

 

Anyway I’m done for tonight and likely for a few weeks at least on this board! Always gets a bit mental on here either way!

Like I said, he’s done an incredible job getting us to where we are now, and he’ll always be thanked for that 

[tinker]

7 minutes ago, IrishVilla10 said:

Like I said, he’s done an incredible job getting us to where we are now, and he’ll always be thanked for that 

So we will move onto the next Messiah. 

[thabucks]

No time for sentiment or goodwill now as the stakes are too high to regress and I cannot see Smith evolving any further as a manager. 

Newcastle next season will be a force no doubt and yet another team with aspirations like ours to crack the sky 6 + Leicester & West Ham to compete against for those hallowed league positions. This season cannot be wasted on a failed sense of loyalty through nostalgia. Facts are the last 10 months we’ve been poor. Last 5 games been overall have been pretty awful and he doesn’t know his best XI or formation 3 years in etc etc. 

In NSWE’s multi year plan for competing & success, Smith’s length of time on that journey will be judged on results and can he takes us forwards any more… I don’t think he can nor will. He doesn’t look like he can stabilise us and even if he can, losing 5 on the bounce and 7 out of 11 already with tougher games to come and still with two months till jan - we are at 18 losses this calendar year so far… Pretty dire statistic for how much £££ spent? 

As I’ve listed before, there are some very good candidates - available and who can build upon his fantastic job Smith has done and was brought in to do but IMO has reached its natural conclusion. He will be forever lauded for the role he played when the end comes - whenever that may be, and i feel it’s now. 

Edited November 7, 2021 by thabucks

[Peter Griffin]

1 hour ago, nick76 said:

I also don’t think you should change unless you definitely know you can get somebody better

But that is never going to happen. We are not going to go from Smith to Klopp, Poch or Pep. We are only going to get a manager that is lower down the scale then they are. Whenever Villa changes manager there is going to be risk involved and we will not know definitely the new manager will be better. But that should not stop us from sacking a manager if we believe he is not the right man for the job

Edited November 7, 2021 by Peter Griffin
Fixed a typo

[IrishVilla10]

12 minutes ago, tinker said:

So we will move onto the next Messiah. 

Exactly, I want us to go for Klopp

[catanzaro]

12 minutes ago, Peter Griffin said:

But that is never going to happen. We are not going to go from Smith to Klopp, Poch or Pep. We are only going to get a manager that is lower down the scale then they are. Whenever Villa changes manager there is going to be risk involved and we will not no definitely the new manager will be better. But that should not stop us from sacking a manager if we believe he is not the right man for the job

I agree with your point, although I’m personally still not sure about sacking Smith… but if we do… whoever replaces him will not be a sure fire winner,,, Poch managed Saints ffs, so surely there’s a diamond out there waiting for a big job like ours.. 

[dont_do_it_doug.]

I cannot with good conscience say Smith doesn't deserve to lose his job. It would be ludicrous of me to suggest he has done enough over the last 12 months, culminating in the start to the season we have witnessed, to show that he is still the right man to take us to the next level. We have fallen so low in my estimation on the pitch that I am fearful the 'next level' under Smith has reverted to finishing 17th again. If we were to be dragged into a relegation scrap, I do not trust that he has the particular skills needed, sans a 3 month break, to keep us in the league. 

However, I am also never convinced that sacking your manager mid-stream is a fundamentally good idea unless you absolutely have to. Of course, every point counts, but I feel if they do get the *right* man in, which they absolutely must either way, the squad is more than capable of finishing comfortably in mid table regardless of whether we lose the next game or not. So I suppose I see no harm in giving him one last inch of rope before we have no choice but to navigate the treacherous waters of wholesale change.

[DaveAV1]

5 hours ago, dont_do_it_doug. said:

I cannot with good conscience say Smith doesn't deserve to lose his job. It would be ludicrous of me to suggest he has done enough over the last 12 months, culminating in the start to the season we have witnessed, to show that he is still the right man to take us to the next level. We have fallen so low in my estimation on the pitch that I am fearful the 'next level' under Smith has reverted to finishing 17th again. If we were to be dragged into a relegation scrap, I do not trust that he has the particular skills needed, sans a 3 month break, to keep us in the league. 

However, I am also never convinced that sacking your manager mid-stream is a fundamentally good idea unless you absolutely have to. Of course, every point counts, but I feel if they do get the *right* man in, which they absolutely must either way, the squad is more than capable of finishing comfortably in mid table regardless of whether we lose the next game or not. So I suppose I see no harm in giving him one last inch of rope before we have no choice but to navigate the treacherous waters of wholesale change.

Here lies the great dilemma. Letting Dean go will be emotionally tough for him and for a lot of us fans, he sort of epitomises the dreams of many of us. Add to that,  he’s a thoroughly decent bloke and that fits in with us as a club too. We all like to think, and I believe it’s on the whole true, that Aston Villa are a decent club with decent morals, not flash but solid and always with the potential for glory or disaster.

The flip side is, that the world isn’t entirely like that, the modern football one particularly. Nobody will give us a few points and the odd trophy for being lovely. Ultimately we have to win football matches and if Dean continues but doesn’t win enough football matches inevitably we will fail and despite all his good character points people will turn on him and the story will turn ugly. It’s generally the way football is, there is a finite length of time that a manger generally lasts. Only exceptional managers get to retire to a fanfare. In our hearts we want that to be Dean but in our heads we know it isn’t. He’s done great, he can look back with pride, he’s done more than his bit to restore our great club but I think he needs to go now with his head held high. 

Then the even bigger dilemma, who comes next? There is always a risk of course and I genuinely don’t have a clue what the answer is. Let’s face it Man U haven’t found the post Fergie answer. Looking back they went 25+ years pre Fergie without winning the league too. Liverpool 1 league title in 30 years. Arsenal are still struggling post Wenger. Man City still haven’t got a date in May to celebrate. Only Chelsea seem to have the art of chopping and changing managers off to a fine art. As always it will take the next man time to get where we really want to be, but time is becoming a little critical and while he doesn’t have to hit the ground running, he needs to at least get a steady jog on fairly quickly. Over to you Mr Purslow, you need to get the next one right or you could be next to go and without a great deal of emotional support either. 

[CVByrne]

13 hours ago, OLDVILLAIN said:

Lucian Favre all day long for me

it would be a massive statement of intent from nswe

How his runs ended at BMG and Dortmund would worry you though

[CVByrne]

6 hours ago, dont_do_it_doug. said:

I cannot with good conscience say Smith doesn't deserve to lose his job. It would be ludicrous of me to suggest he has done enough over the last 12 months, culminating in the start to the season we have witnessed, to show that he is still the right man to take us to the next level. We have fallen so low in my estimation on the pitch that I am fearful the 'next level' under Smith has reverted to finishing 17th again. If we were to be dragged into a relegation scrap, I do not trust that he has the particular skills needed, sans a 3 month break, to keep us in the league. 

However, I am also never convinced that sacking your manager mid-stream is a fundamentally good idea unless you absolutely have to. Of course, every point counts, but I feel if they do get the *right* man in, which they absolutely must either way, the squad is more than capable of finishing comfortably in mid table regardless of whether we lose the next game or not. So I suppose I see no harm in giving him one last inch of rope before we have no choice but to navigate the treacherous waters of wholesale change.

That's why I think the owners will give him the next game or two to stop the slide. But we have 3 teams who will put big scores past us in Liverpool, City and Leicester to come after Brighton and Palace. We will be mired in the relegation battle come mid December regardless of what Smith can do. 

I think Smith will not remain as manager of Villa beyond the summer. Maybe just maybe Solskjaer will be available in the summer, or Potter if/when Brighton drop back to mid table. So the manager choices in summer are better potentially better than now. 

So we need to hope that Smith and the team turn it around and beat Brighton, then get at least a point at Palace. We then have City and Leicester coming to Villa Park where we need to at least perform in defeat. We're not even 1/3rd of the way through the season, Smith and the team turning this around is the best thing that can happen and we need it to happen at Brighton. 

Our new manager will be in place for next season to take us forward

[villalad21]

11 minutes ago, CVByrne said:

That's why I think the owners will give him the next game or two to stop the slide. But we have 3 teams who will put big scores past us in Liverpool, City and Leicester to come after Brighton and Palace. We will be mired in the relegation battle come mid December regardless of what Smith can do. 

I think Smith will not remain as manager of Villa beyond the summer. Maybe just maybe Solskjaer will be available in the summer, or Potter if/when Brighton drop back to mid table. So the manager choices in summer are better potentially better than now. 

So we need to hope that Smith and the team turn it around and beat Brighton, then get at least a point at Palace. We then have City and Leicester coming to Villa Park where we need to at least perform in defeat. We're not even 1/3rd of the way through the season, Smith and the team turning this around is the best thing that can happen and we need it to happen at Brighton. 

Our new manager will be in place for next season to take us forward

Brighton is a much better team than Southampton, and Crystal Palace look strong under Vieira. Outplayed Arsenal and beat Wolves 2-0.

If Smith stays we lose the next 2 imo.