Team shape, tactics and personnel

[KevinRichardsonsMoustache]

7 hours ago, MaVilla said:

i think the reason the "traps" work is because there is more than one of them, it isnt one dimensional like "we always play tika-taka", or "we always play with a low block and hit teams on the break", in theory ours is a hybrid, if they do A, we do B, if they counter B, we go to C, Emery seems to not just play in "one style", so depending on what the opposition does, there is more than one way to skin the cat, and we have a few different shaped knives!?

I think what i have seen, both from others reviewing it, and my own eyes, is we clearly play a hybrid style where we almost play like a mini Man City in our own half, but when the time comes we go fast and go hard in a false transition, like a break situation, but we create the break via our own intelligent build up, drawing their players on and creating artificial space in behind, i have also seen comments that Emery tries to create managed chaos in the midfield, overloading it, drawing our players and theirs in, and trusting through training and system work that our technical players can come out on top and exploit that chaos and utilise the space created in other areas of the pitch to release quick, incisive breaks/transitions.

I dont think "wear thin" is the thing, but as we become more of a problem (aka, the more we do well), the more teams will study us closer to try and find holes in the system, ofc this will work to a degree, but i guess the better players we have, the more we improve, and improve our players (by doing well, and investing to further improve the team), the more capable we are of implementing the system, and on average, against good, but not quite as good players and tactics, you will win out more often than not, but yeah, the better we continue to do, over time people will try and succeed to counter us, which ofc does happen, as we dont win every game , but does it work more often than not, especially as our first 11 continues to improve?, seems it does.

he is tweaking it by doing various things, obviously i cant list or even know them all, for i am a mere human! , but all sorts of things like just how high does the back line go depending on the opposition, how compact is the team in the different phases of play, do we press more or less, do we press central or wide, do we try to build more from the back in certain games and create false transitions, or do we go more on the press and try to turn the ball over quickly, or do we do a mid of that and try to catch offside, or force long balls and recover the ball via our defenders, and build from the back, or do we build from the back slowly and play through, or do we try to create fast breaks in transition, do we attack centrally or more running channels to target a weak spot, i guess we do all of those to varyingly increased or decreased levels depending on the opposition?

I would guess the idea is to do as well as we can, improve, attract better players to implement the style/system more effectively, as far as i can tell Emery has used these systems/tactics literally everywhere he has been, the only clear variance i have seen anywhere is his preference of base tactic/formation, he uses 442 usually here, but i have seen a comment by him that 442 is the "best overall" system for ok attack but solidity in defence and offers a non-elite club (ie: underdogs) the best chance to get an outcome, but he actually prefers 433 or 4141as its better when the first 11 is....elite?, but he sees them as slightly less balanced compared to a base 442.

in terms of being a negative nelly, i dont think you should beat yourself up, the last 20 ish years have been tough for Villa fans overall, heck, i have a tea cup thats says "i cant keep calm, im a Villa fan".......says it all really, i think if we can get our transfers right and back Emery over the next couple of windows we should be able to develop and build, but its always fine margins i guess, what i do think though, is Emery is as good a chance of taking us back to the big table as any manager i have seen since the 90s (possibly more), and if we turn against him we deserve everything we get, so lets just trust the best manager we have had in....literal decades?, and buckle up for the ride

 

Thanks for your thoughtful reply. I think you’re spot on here: the thing is that the formation is immensely fluid. It’s a 442 at certain points then a 433 in others. Or even a 235 in offensive situations. It’s **** incredible that he has drilled this into the players. 
 

I wonder if this fluidity is adaptable if we go down to ten men? Or if we will see Unai shit up shop in those cases because the system can’t cope?

[TheMelvillan]

11 hours ago, MaVilla said:

i think the reason the "traps" work is because there is more than one of them, it isnt one dimensional like "we always play tika-taka", or "we always play with a low block and hit teams on the break", in theory ours is a hybrid, if they do A, we do B, if they counter B, we go to C, Emery seems to not just play in "one style", so depending on what the opposition does, there is more than one way to skin the cat, and we have a few different shaped knives!?

I think what i have seen, both from others reviewing it, and my own eyes, is we clearly play a hybrid style where we almost play like a mini Man City in our own half, but when the time comes we go fast and go hard in a false transition, like a break situation, but we create the break via our own intelligent build up, drawing their players on and creating artificial space in behind, i have also seen comments that Emery tries to create managed chaos in the midfield, overloading it, drawing our players and theirs in, and trusting through training and system work that our technical players can come out on top and exploit that chaos and utilise the space created in other areas of the pitch to release quick, incisive breaks/transitions.

I dont think "wear thin" is the thing, but as we become more of a problem (aka, the more we do well), the more teams will study us closer to try and find holes in the system, ofc this will work to a degree, but i guess the better players we have, the more we improve, and improve our players (by doing well, and investing to further improve the team), the more capable we are of implementing the system, and on average, against good, but not quite as good players and tactics, you will win out more often than not, but yeah, the better we continue to do, over time people will try and succeed to counter us, which ofc does happen, as we dont win every game , but does it work more often than not, especially as our first 11 continues to improve?, seems it does.

he is tweaking it by doing various things, obviously i cant list or even know them all, for i am a mere human! , but all sorts of things like just how high does the back line go depending on the opposition, how compact is the team in the different phases of play, do we press more or less, do we press central or wide, do we try to build more from the back in certain games and create false transitions, or do we go more on the press and try to turn the ball over quickly, or do we do a mid of that and try to catch offside, or force long balls and recover the ball via our defenders, and build from the back, or do we build from the back slowly and play through, or do we try to create fast breaks in transition, do we attack centrally or more running channels to target a weak spot, i guess we do all of those to varyingly increased or decreased levels depending on the opposition?

I would guess the idea is to do as well as we can, improve, attract better players to implement the style/system more effectively, as far as i can tell Emery has used these systems/tactics literally everywhere he has been, the only clear variance i have seen anywhere is his preference of base tactic/formation, he uses 442 usually here, but i have seen a comment by him that 442 is the "best overall" system for ok attack but solidity in defence and offers a non-elite club (ie: underdogs) the best chance to get an outcome, but he actually prefers 433 or 4141as its better when the first 11 is....elite?, but he sees them as slightly less balanced compared to a base 442.

in terms of being a negative nelly, i dont think you should beat yourself up, the last 20 ish years have been tough for Villa fans overall, heck, i have a tea cup thats says "i cant keep calm, im a Villa fan".......says it all really, i think if we can get our transfers right and back Emery over the next couple of windows we should be able to develop and build, but its always fine margins i guess, what i do think though, is Emery is as good a chance of taking us back to the big table as any manager i have seen since the 90s (possibly more), and if we turn against him we deserve everything we get, so lets just trust the best manager we have had in....literal decades?, and buckle up for the ride

 

All ive learnt is that - depressingly - im probably too thick to be a footballer cos no way would I take any of that in let alone remember it and apply it in the heat of the moment!

[Kingman]

9 games in 30 days coming up so guess we will see rotations 

[Brumstopdogs]

 

[Delphinho123]

I found some of his decisions odd today. Konsa should have played in the middle with Cash at right back. 

I have no idea why Diaby isn’t starting. Even a completely out of form, injured Diaby is better than Zaniolo. I can kinda understand why he played Bailey.

 

[DJBOB]

Think Unai made some curious decisions but has chosen to rotate for Bournemouth in anticipation for City/Arsenal. 
 
Is that smart at the end of the day when we’re more likely to get 3 points full strength vs Bournemouth than City/Arsenal.

Then again, if we get anything from Arsenal or City, it could count more as a 6 pointer.

Definitely had the same feeling as the games he rotated in the cups. A decent side but not optimal and the weaknesses (Diego-Pau, Tielemans double pivot, Zaniolo) prevented us from getting all 3.

 

[andym]

40 minutes ago, Brumstopdogs said:

 

Not sure i believe that, Diaby started thursday and we'll need him fresh for the next two games, so i think he was actually rested.

But saying to another player you only started because i was resting someone else is the type of stupid man management the previous manager would have done. Unai is far too smart for stuff like that.

 

[sharkyvilla]

It's all clearly to manage workload, it's not rocket science why he has left one or two out and shifted things about to accommodate the squad players when we have 2 games a week.

[DJBOB]

I think what’s true of most 3 CB formations is that you need elite wingbacks to pull it off as you usually vacate the middle of the pitch. 
 
Unless you have a Foyth that really be a RB/CB hybrid, it hasn’t worked out particularly well for us. 

[MWARLEY2]

He knows what happens when you don't rotate . He isnt stupid. For 16 years he had learned this when in Europe.He knows his best team. But he also knows that it will catch up with them eventually.  As it stands we have 20 of our best players fit for Man City midweek. Just Ty   Emi and Bertie missing.  One of the best fitness situations of any club currently.

Our form is probably the worst it has been this season over the last 7 days.  And still we have got 7 points out of 9 across the 2 competitions while not being convincing in any of them, especially today.

Lets hope that we can get things going against City and cut lose again. And Kamara Cash Diaby are bang at it. 

 

[Zhan_Zhuang]

Unai Emery is selecting a team out of necessity, I can see the reasons for this. He has to trust his method and as he says: "creating an identity".

Emery often looks energetic on the touchline but he seemed almost agitated today, Villa looked to be playing well within themselves. Perhaps why we struggled a little to dominate the game.

Villa need to step up though for the next two games, at home and under the lights I'm hopeful they will.

[Vive_La_Villa]

7 minutes ago, Zhan_Zhuang said:

Unai Emery is selecting a team out of necessity, I can see the reasons for this. He has to trust his method and as he says: "creating an identity".

Emery often looks energetic on the touchline but he seemed almost agitated today, Villa looked to be playing well within themselves. Perhaps why we struggled a little to dominate the game.

Villa need to step up though for the next two games, at home and under the lights I'm hopeful they will.

Ref let them bully us today. They don’t allow it at home.  I reckon this frustrated him too.

[Tayls]

Is the three at the back thing an effective way of playing for us? I’m not convinced yet based on the past couple of games or so. Seems a bit odd and negative to me?! 

[avfc1982am]

16 minutes ago, Tayls said:

Is the three at the back thing an effective way of playing for us? I’m not convinced yet based on the past couple of games or so. Seems a bit odd and negative to me?! 

It's only 3 in possession and then a back 4 out of possession. I think it's going to take a bit of getting used to but I'm not keen on Konsa the right side of it tbh. We got exposed down that side a lot today. 

[villan95]

Just 2 clean sheets in 14 PL matches and 1 in 5 in Europe

Only Luton, Burnley and West Ham have kept fewer in the PL

Edited December 4, 2023 by villan95

[DJBOB]

5 hours ago, villan95 said:

Just 2 clean sheets in 14 PL matches and 1 in 5 in Europe

Only Luton, Burnley and West Ham have kept fewer in the PL

There have been some aberrations with clean sheets (Luton, West Ham, AZ away).

But we are 9th in the league in expected goals against - which is about right for our performances.

And joint second in expected goals against in the conference league (with Lille).

[TRO]

On 27/11/2023 at 14:30, DJBOB said:

I think for as much we have our away problems, my belief is that it is self-inflicted with the defensive formation with Cash at RW. In our attempts to mitigate the opponent by lining up in a super defensive manner (3 CB's, two fullbacks, 3 midfielders and two forwards) - we take our away ability to score first and early.

The Cash at RW experiment only really worked against Burnley and they're bottom of the league. Away at Liverpool, Wolves, and now Spurs - we have struggled with Cash at RW to build out of the first and second phases when the opponent presses. Cash is not a prototypical RW in Unai's system who's able to move infield and manipulate the space to progress forward. He wants to hug the touchline and that causes an issue when the ball is swept to Konsa as Cash is on the same vertical lane forward with no ability to beat or threaten his marker.

This causes a downstream issue where it is too easy to pin us against the sidelines and then force dangerous 50/50 balls across the middle. Watkins can win some of these but Diaby has not shown the ability to do so.

Against City and Arsenal, we will see if Unai sticks to it. Maybe Unai thinks he can coach Cash into taking more inside positions but Cash himself looks horribly uncomfortable cutting in. Maybe switching McGinn and Cash so they're cutting on their natural foot might be more fruitful? Cash at LM and McGinn at RM. For as much as he doesn't want to use Bailey immediately, it would solve a lot of the problems by having Bailey out wide to hold/progress when we're trying to build out. Then again, Bailey has struggled to do so as well.

Therein is Unai's conundrum - by going more defensive with Cash, we have been unable to hold onto the ball and as a result, give up more chances anyway. Whether Unai thinks he can coach the position better to Cash will be the question. Otherwise, he will need to go with a more attacking personnel and trust in them to track back appropriately.

I don't see defence as a formation, as such,  I see it more as a mentality and physicality and an intrinsic part of the game, required by every player.

sure we have the last line of a formation as traditionally as players with a prime function to defend the goal.....but defending starts at the front.

One of the most fundamental aspects of it, is losing the ball in transition, being dispossessed in possession, being second to contested balls, being muscled off the ball with questionable force or misplacing passes.....

Defensive quality is an intrinsic part of any top team.....and in the right narrative, requires a high skill set, and a focused approach.

Its of no surprise all the top teams, have the least goals conceded, there is a direct parallel.

But the moment defence is mentioned some cling to " park the bus" .....but its a throw away view.

Fergie once said   "Attack wins you games, but defence wins you titles"......its true.

 

[DJBOB]

6 minutes ago, TRO said:

I don't see defence as a formation, as such,  I see it more as a mentality and physicality and an intrinsic part of the game, required by every player.

sure we have the last line of a formation as traditionally as players with a prime function to defend the goal.....but defending starts at the front.

One of the most fundamental aspects of it, is losing the ball in transition, being dispossessed in possession, being second to contested balls, being muscled off the ball with questionable force or misplacing passes.....

Defensive quality is an intrinsic part of any top team.....and in the right narrative, requires a high skill set, and a focused approach.

Its of no surprise all the top teams, have the least goals conceded, there is a direct parallel.

But the moment defence is mentioned some cling to " park the bus" .....but its a throw away view.

Fergie once said   "Attack wins you games, but defence wins you titles"......its true.

 

Mentality and physicality is part of it - for sure. Physicality is somewhat of a problem but I don't think it's a mentality problem.

We have an unbalanced squad still. Maybe if Mings and Buendia hadn't been injured, we wouldn't be facing these problems.

But City has an unbalanced side as well without Stones and Rodri. Arsenal are unbalanced without Saliba. Liverpool continue to leak goals left and right while they play MacAllister as a 6.

The team you like to quote as mentality and physicality monsters - Newcastle - were trounced at Bournemouth - producing a display worse than us.

So far as much as you say "mentality and physicality" - there are serious problems in the tactical set up of our lineup that have nothing to do with mentality and physicality.

We lack a backup RB. We lack quality depth behind Luiz and Kamara. Our backup ST is 19 years old. We lack a LM until JJ is fit.

It doesn't matter how physical we are if we have a strong first XI but an ill-fitting bench.

Edited December 4, 2023 by DJBOB

[TRO]

3 minutes ago, DJBOB said:

Mentality and physicality is part of it - for sure. Physicality is somewhat of a problem but I don't think it's a mentality problem.

We have an unbalanced squad still. Maybe if Mings and Buendia hadn't been injured, we wouldn't be facing these problems.

But City has an unbalanced side as well without Stones and Rodri. Arsenal are unbalanced without Saliba. Liverpool continue to leak goals left and right while they play MacAllister as a 6.

The team you like to quote as mentality and physicality monsters - Newcastle - were trounced at Bournemouth - producing a display worse than us.

So far as much as you say "mentality and physicality" - there are serious problems in the tactical set up of our lineup that have nothing to do with mentality and physicality.

We lack a RB. We lack quality depth behind Luiz and Kamara. Our backup ST is 19 years old. We lack a LM until JJ is fit.

It doesn't matter how physical we are if we have a strong first XI and an ill-fitted bench.

I don't think you get the context of what I meant in mentality.

the ability and impulse to go after a player to tackle, requires a mental instinct to win the ball and turn it over.

I didn't say it was a mental problem....I said Defending requires a physical and mental ability to compete.

All these things are not meant to be appraised in isolation.....its all part of the makeup required to be a top player.

I agree our squad is still unbalanced, but we are getting there.

[Tayls]

We defo do still have some defensive frailties. Even if the expected goals against is quite low, we still seem to give away stupid opportunities to the opponents. Would like to see us tighten up at the back somehow.