Team shape, tactics and personnel

[blandy]

11 minutes ago, KentVillan said:

https://theathletic.com/2831973/2021/09/18/premier-league-referees-are-showing-a-lighter-touch-is-it-working/?amp=1
 

I think it’s no coincidence that Pep’s City team is suddenly the tallest and most physical he’s ever coached.

Ah, I knew “fewer penalties and fouls will be awarded where there is minimal contact”. Though you could have fooled me on Saturday at the end of the game!

Will the minimal contact thing (which is good) really mean more (paraphrasing) beefy clogging, or to be less twisting of words, more physical play? I just looked at is as trying to reduce the amount of diving and rolling around after being affected by a light breeze or minor touch or contact.

[KentVillan]

3 minutes ago, blandy said:

Ah, I knew “fewer penalties and fouls will be awarded where there is minimal contact”. Though you could have fooled me on Saturday at the end of the game!

Will the minimal contact thing (which is good) really mean more (paraphrasing) beefy clogging, or to be less twisting of words, more physical play? I just looked at is as trying to reduce the amount of diving and rolling around after being affected by a light breeze or minor touch or contact.

I think it’s translated into generally a lot more physical contact and heavier tackles / physical contact being handled more leniently. It’s not quite the 80s or 90s but it’s definitely a much more physical game today than it was 3 or 4 years ago.

[lexicon]

1 hour ago, TRO said:

oh, ok.

I didn't think anything.....I just took his opinion as one that I share.....hence my reference to it.

as you are a keen member of his fan club, you might want to take it on board too.

Do you not agree? 

[duke313]

Who stays? And who goes?

Goalkeepers - Martinez, Steer, Olsen, Sinisalo
Defenders - Cash, Carlos, Konsa, Mings, Moreno, Chambers, Young, Digne
Midfielders - Luiz, McGinn, Traore, Buendia, Coutinho, Bailey, Dendoncker, Ramsey, Kamara
Forwards - Watkins, Duran
On Loan - Wesley, Philogene, Davis, Hause, Iroegbunam, Archer, Sanson, Nakamba

[MaVilla]

39 minutes ago, duke313 said:

Who stays? And who goes?

Goalkeepers - Martinez, Steer, Olsen, Sinisalo
Defenders - Cash, Carlos, Konsa, Mings, Moreno, Chambers, Young, Digne
Midfielders - Luiz, McGinn, Traore, Buendia, Coutinho, Bailey, Dendoncker, Ramsey, Kamara
Forwards - Watkins, Duran
On Loan - Wesley, Philogene, Davis, Hause, Iroegbunam, Archer, Sanson, Nakamba

"to go" in bold, at least for me.

Archer would be a "maybe", dependent on it being a good deal for us.

I would also probably give Sanson a chance as part of the squad, but i think he will want to go in the summer tbh as he wont want to be a squad player.

[burchy]

35 minutes ago, duke313 said:

Who stays? And who goes?

Goalkeepers - Martinez, Steer, Olsen, Sinisalo
Defenders - Cash, Carlos, Konsa, Mings, Moreno, Chambers, Young, Digne
Midfielders - Luiz, McGinn, Traore, Buendia, Coutinho, Bailey, Dendoncker, J. Ramsey, Kamara
Forwards - Watkins, Duran
On Loan - Wesley, Philogene, Davis, Hause, Iroegbunam, A. Ramsey, Archer, Sanson, Nakamba

I might be being brutal there as Digne, Dendonker and Bailey are all senior members of the squad. I’d certainly listen to offers for all of them. 

I’d be inclined to keep some of the youngsters about for Europe as well so perhaps not send A. Ramsey, Tim and Philogene on loan initially. 

[MarkLillis]

19 hours ago, blandy said:

I watched it. It was a big strong experienced Luton side against a team of what seemed like youths (due to Sunderland’s injury list). The reason Luton won was in essence down to physical size and strength. Both teams put in 100% effort, worked their socks off, chased, tackled, closed down and all that. The standard of play was poor, neither side strung more than a few passes together and both were miles off prem standard. It was a typical lower league game and not really reflective of the league that Villa are in at all. I’m not sure there’s much read across at all to this discussion of our tactics and selections 

My point was that both sides ability was pretty much even.

Albeit standard was lower the teams were even and had similar styles in fact you could argue Sunderland had more flair/ creativity…

However Luton won because they were physically more able/had more desire than Sunderland.

Which ties up with the point I thought you had made about teams not applying the basics(desire,belief,willingness etc) getting turned over.

 

[DJBOB]

Eh - I think this Luton point is lost in that it was just a lower standard match overall. There are certain mismatches that can (and should) be exploited, but @blandy and @lexicon 's overall point is that desire/physicality is the minimum for the top league. Of course if you don't show up for the day, you'll get turned over. That's true regardless of any tactics applied. Look at us vs the demonstrably more physical Newcastle on the day.

But in order to consistently - and that's the key, consistency - put together results, you need elite tactical management in modern football. You can't just line up the same or similar XI in a 442, tell them to go out there and want it more and win. This is the application that is holding the current set of English managers back (Lampard, Gerrard, Moyes, etc etc). Yeah - your Roys and Big Sam's can put together 2 or 3 matches of the equivalent of a rock fight which will be praised as "back to basics" - but there's a reason they plumb around in the lower half/relegation sides and not in the top half of the league.

There's a reason that the managers of the season candidates are all known for their high tactical acumen - even Howe - who developed a lot of tactical nuance in his Bournemouth days and has continually demonstrated his ability to adjust tactically match to match. Enough said about De Zerbi/Emery/Pep/Arteta. Even look at the top half of the league. They are all (Ryan Mason not withstanding) renowned tacticians.

[TRO]

23 hours ago, blandy said:

Interestingly City were full of midgets a couple of seasons ago and won with 100 points. They’ve changed their tactics and had to, Liverpool have belatedly changed theirs too. The fundamentals are still there, but they’ve evolved tactically, with an inverted full back, or with the threat of Haaland and more longer passing at times. Last season a false 9, the season before with Aguero or whoever as a shorter box player. Liverpool it would be fair to say did tail off a little on a couple of positions workrate due to different player make up - not that they weren’t trying, the new players, but that Mane and Firminho were just more terrier like than the new guys in style.  As players careers at a club end there’s never a like for like replacement, so adaptation is essential. The manager has to get the best from the squad and that means adjusting the set up ( and much more).

You are right, Pep actually came out and said it......but in my humble opinion, we need both, height for certain postions to combat aerial threat and a low centre of gravity, smaller players for the intricate work, with quick feet...its all a balancing act.

Its the diversity, thats crucial, too many of one size creates imbalance....but that's just talking abour stature alone,  we all know many other things have to come in to play.

[TRO]

On 18/05/2023 at 14:25, DJBOB said:

Eh - I think this Luton point is lost in that it was just a lower standard match overall. There are certain mismatches that can (and should) be exploited, but @blandy and @lexicon 's overall point is that desire/physicality is the minimum for the top league. Of course if you don't show up for the day, you'll get turned over. That's true regardless of any tactics applied. Look at us vs the demonstrably more physical Newcastle on the day.

But in order to consistently - and that's the key, consistency - put together results, you need elite tactical management in modern football. You can't just line up the same or similar XI in a 442, tell them to go out there and want it more and win. This is the application that is holding the current set of English managers back (Lampard, Gerrard, Moyes, etc etc). Yeah - your Roys and Big Sam's can put together 2 or 3 matches of the equivalent of a rock fight which will be praised as "back to basics" - but there's a reason they plumb around in the lower half/relegation sides and not in the top half of the league.

There's a reason that the managers of the season candidates are all known for their high tactical acumen - even Howe - who developed a lot of tactical nuance in his Bournemouth days and has continually demonstrated his ability to adjust tactically match to match. Enough said about De Zerbi/Emery/Pep/Arteta. Even look at the top half of the league. They are all (Ryan Mason not withstanding) renowned tacticians.

I don't think anyone is arguing against all that......but all these tacticians you mention, ( and I agree)seem  to have an equal interest, in the workrate and intensity, and its more often than not, their teams do turn up on the day, because they make it their business to drum that in to the Players......look at the transformation in Jack, with a master tactician and a driven passionate manager.

I think what is getting lost in this debate, its ALL important.......

Football has always been about competing and way before Arsene Wenger arrived, diet and drinking habits were ignored.....He was instrumental in changing that, and if you don't compete you get left behind....So they all changed.

but I could say, everyone knows you need "elite tactical management in modern football", I am merely making the point its all important.

Personally, (and I accept everyones view.)....I think its all important, and one factor missing and it falls down.

I look at Chelsea and think how on earth have those quality players, succumbed to this.....(apart from me , not caring), its poor management. ...and they have become half soaked, they will never admit that, but they have.

 

Edited May 19, 2023 by TRO

[DJBOB]

38 minutes ago, TRO said:

I don't think anyone is arguing against all that......but all these tacticians you mention, ( and I agree)seem  to have an equal interest, in the workrate and intensity, and its more often than not, their teams do turn up on the day, because they make it their business to drum that in to the Players......look at the transformation in Jack, with a master tactician and a driven passionate manager.

I think what is getting lost in this debate, its ALL important.......

Football has always been about competing and way before Arsene Wenger arrived, diet and drinking habits were ignored.....He was instrumental in changing that, and if you don't compete you get left behind....So they all changed.

but I could say, everyone knows you need "elite tactical management in modern football", I am merely making the point its all important.

Personally, (and I accept everyones view.)....I think its all important, and one factor missing and it falls down.

I look at Chelsea and think how on earth have those quality players, succumbed to this.....(apart me ,from not caring), its poor management. ...and they have become half soaked, they will never admit that, but they have.

 

It is all important. What I and others have contested for long is that a master tactician can figure out which role players do best in, where to place them, and put them in the best position to succeed. 
 
I seem to recall several threads and a whole “Are the players to blame” for not being physical or strong enough which was just patently untrue. The players were good enough, the coaches weren’t. 

[TRO]

5 hours ago, DJBOB said:

It is all important. What I and others have contested for long is that a master tactician can figure out which role players do best in, where to place them, and put them in the best position to succeed. 
 
I seem to recall several threads and a whole “Are the players to blame” for not being physical or strong enough which was just patently untrue. The players were good enough, the coaches weren’t. 

I like many others, who argued the players were to blame, are amazed at the turn around, and the performances Unai has got from them....that is very much to his credit, and to theirs for responding, admirably.

If you could see that, pre -UE.....you and others deserve credit too....as I couldn't.

However, It will be interesting to see who Unai brings in, and to see if that suggestion, is addressed. I still have a hunch, he will bring in some players,in certain positions with a more physically adept profile.

While I am over the moon, with the success he has garnered since his arrival....I will be gobsmacked, if he goes in to next season, with the same team.....so I am still of the opinion, we need strengthening.

[sne]

Doubt a single person thinks we don't need to strengthen. Never seen anyone claim or suggest that, this window or any other window. Ever.

[TRO]

10 hours ago, sne said:

Doubt a single person thinks we don't need to strengthen. Never seen anyone claim or suggest that, this window or any other window. Ever.

If we sign players who find their way in to the first team, by powers of deduction, it would suggest, that some players are not to the managers satisfaction, for where we want to go.

The debate goes back to when the difference of opinion, was players or manager....when we was struggling......I honestly thought it was a player thing, Unai proved me wrong, fine....but I thought it ended there, he wouldn't be bringing new players in.

I am the first to say, that I am amazed at what the manager has achieved, with the same team....but I am also aware some players might not cut it, and that bit doesn't surprise me.

 even the manager himself, knows he needs players, to do it with.....its about both.

 

 

Edited May 19, 2023 by TRO

[blandy]

10 minutes ago, TRO said:

if it thought it ended there, he wouldn't be bringing new players in.

Players get older, players themselves want to move, contracts run down and so selling and replacing becomes a business necessity. Younger players improve and develop, offers from other clubs come in and the finances mean they leave and need replacing. Money is or isn’t available for transfers. Club owners ambitions drive things, qualification or not for Europe and the inherent need then for a larger squad for more games drives recruitment policy. As does the club’s “model” - like recruit young players who you believe you can develop and sell at a profit.

Of course managers always always want to improve the squad and team and they always have a particular approach in mind which will either be driven by a really short term vision and pressure to “win stuff now” or a mid to long term vision of “build with an eye on the future” being the more influential factor.

TL:DR buying new players doesn’t necessarily mean or prove the ones you have are “not good enough”. Clubs replace players and get worse sometimes. Sometimes it’s chemistry rather than ability. Sometimes it’s a manager preferring a particular personality type…

[DJBOB]

1 hour ago, TRO said:

If we sign players who find their way in to the first team, by powers of deduction, it would suggest, that some players are not to the managers satisfaction, for where we want to go.

The debate goes back to when the difference of opinion, was players or manager....when we was struggling......I honestly thought it was a player thing, Unai proved me wrong, fine....but if it thought it ended there, he wouldn't be bringing new players in.

I am the first to say, that I am amazed at what the manager has achieved, with the same team....but I am also aware some players might not cut it, and that bit doesn't surprise me.

 even the manager himself, knows he needs players to do it with.....its about both.

 

 

Every manager needs better players. Even the best manager in the world brought in an actual striker instead of fiddling around with false 9’s. 
 
The players are a top half of the table quality. Though even I am surprised that Unai was able to resurrect this season from the ashes. 
 
The contention was always this “we need taller, physical players” which maybe true in some areas but demonstrably not true overall. Aside from Dendoncker playing, we deploy a small side overall but have been one of the tightest defenses since Unai and improved set piece defending. And the key is that it’s no fluke, we prevent lots of chances through offside traps, funneling chances out wide, and preventing easy cutbacks. 
 
The missing pieces for us are pace and dribbling ability up top now and some quality depth all around. 

[TRO]

6 hours ago, DJBOB said:

Every manager needs better players. Even the best manager in the world brought in an actual striker instead of fiddling around with false 9’s. 
 
The players are a top half of the table quality. Though even I am surprised that Unai was able to resurrect this season from the ashes. 
 
The contention was always this “we need taller, physical players” which maybe true in some areas but demonstrably not true overall. Aside from Dendoncker playing, we deploy a small side overall but have been one of the tightest defenses since Unai and improved set piece defending. And the key is that it’s no fluke, we prevent lots of chances through offside traps, funneling chances out wide, and preventing easy cutbacks. 
 
The missing pieces for us are pace and dribbling ability up top now and some quality depth all around. 

Whilst, I still think we need a few bigger players in certain positions to bolster the squad, I have never intended to suggest, that has to be the case overall.....your acknowledgement,enboldened is precisiely my point.

When some comments are made on ocassion, brevity is employed.....That does not mean literal responses/ interpretations are just....I think my point has been misconstrued.

My stance on bigger players remains in balance, but not the whole team.

Edited May 19, 2023 by TRO

[punkymonkey666]

On 19/05/2023 at 01:48, TRO said:

I like many others, who argued the players were to blame, are amazed at the turn around, and the performances Unai has got from them....that is very much to his credit, and to theirs for responding, admirably.

If you could see that, pre -UE.....you and others deserve credit too....as I couldn't.

However, It will be interesting to see who Unai brings in, and to see if that suggestion, is addressed. I still have a hunch, he will bring in some players,in certain positions with a more physically adept profile.

While I am over the moon, with the success he has garnered since his arrival....I will be gobsmacked, if he goes in to next season, with the same team.....so I am still of the opinion, we need strengthening.

Is anyone suggesting we won't strengthen? Would be weird to push on with such a threadbare squad, wouldn't it?

I think, especially with the NSWE statement in the Spanish press, we will be investing heavily.

[Monkeypuzzle]

It is really easy to see just how much more time our players spend on the ball in possession when being pressed now than in the past. They shield the ball, turn and look for the best pass. I know those are the basics that every child is taught, but actually doing it in the Premier League is so difficult and requires such confidence. The days of panic and losing of possession when pressed are gone and I've not seen anyone do it quite as well as us on such a consistent basis in recent months.

[catanzaro]

I’m wondering whether we’ll play a 3241 formation next year. If we get Diego fit enough..