Team shape, tactics and personnel

[daft]

11 minutes ago, DCJonah said:

I think that does a huge disservice to what Howe has accomplished there. It's not just down to signing some physical players. 

That’s not how I took what he said. He said it was part of it that contributed.

[villan501]

Villa need to get another DM in to play alongside Kamara.

 

The 2 guys protecting the defence need to break play/keep ball and release the attackers we have  so "undroppable  Frieeeeeeeeennndsss mcginn and Ramsey are out. Gerrard is so stuck in his ways and that's why he will hit sacked his tactics and style will not work 

[TRO]

4 hours ago, DCJonah said:

He made a couple of good signings, however that front 3 that caused endless issues for city today were also there under Steve Bruce. 

but what was behind them wasn't, Trippier,Burn, Guimares, Botman......Howe has created a solid defence behind them, inc Midfield , so they can thrive.....I thought Joelinton was Motm, he was with Bruce though.

its about blend and balance, and he signed well.....The players under Bruce, have had help and it shows....I agree, Eddie has done well.

Edited August 21, 2022 by TRO

[Anything11]

5 hours ago, daft said:

It's because we lack clear ideas in each phase of the game. The lads looks for their teammates instead of passing to where the KNOW they are. 

They look uncomfortable and like they ar straining to implement something they don't understand. As a consequence they constantly have to think on their feet which slows them down and hampers decision making. There could be a multitude of reasons as to why.

Very much playing scared and within themselves. Frustrating to watch.

[TRO]

2 hours ago, DCJonah said:

I think that does a huge disservice to what Howe has accomplished there. It's not just down to signing some physical players. 

of course not, but he had the foresight to sign them.....he could have signed a bunch of midgets.

Managers need players, players need managers, no matter how much you try to seperate it....

[Zatman]

12 minutes ago, TRO said:

of course not, but he had the foresight to sign them.....he could have signed a bunch of midgets.

Managers need players, players need managers, no matter how much you try to seperate it....

that rugged left back Matt Targett he signed, modern day Vinnie Jones in the tackle

[Icarium]

I think the last 3 games have done a lot to illuminate the thinking behind Gerrards tactics and why he achieved what he did in Scotland.

As we saw against Everton, its an effective tactic against teams that are coming to play for the draw. These teams are willing to give our defenders time on the ball to facilitate the build up play. If you have 70% possession you can usually turn it its a goal or two. This was much like how most Scottish teams would play against Rangers. Most of them play in damage limiting mode.

Teams that come to play make it very difficult to play this way, as we saw from Bournemouth and crystal palace. Goes a long way to explaining the Scottish cup failures, as the opposition have to come to play and expose the shortcomings of the system.

Very few Premier League teams are going to come and set up for the draw against us. Its why a version tactic was successful for Liverpool, as plenty of teams would set up to play for a draw/limit damage there

[dubliner]

This topic belongs in Other Football.

Aston Villa have no team shape or tactics 

[DCJonah]

9 hours ago, TRO said:

of course not, but he had the foresight to sign them.....he could have signed a bunch of midgets.

Managers need players, players need managers, no matter how much you try to seperate it....

Of course but it can't just be a manager replacing every single player. 

Smith didn't need to do that when he replaced Bruce. 

Palace, Newcastle and Leeds seem to be recruiting well and getting the best out of current players. 

Our new signings are adding nothing and no player already there has got better. 

 

[thunderball]

We took a risk that hasn’t had a glimmer of looking like it might work. We have a very good squad, but Traore and Sanson are not two players I would have down as needing to be sold. AEG, Trez, Nakamba, Haus, Davis all yes, this is the bloat. 

We changed tack when we signed Gerrard and it really looks like a poor group of decisions, and the Ings signing was also dubious. All of a sudden we look a mess, with Brighton, Leeds, Newcastle and particularly Arsenal making very good collective decisions.

McGinn for me should be sold or out of the 1st team starter consideration. I also think we need better than Mings and Konsa. These are holding us back.

Also every successful team presses or has a physical/atheletic style, we don’t.

I think we need a very solid, experienced, current manager to steady the ship and demand respect and authority due to conviction and record.

(I would balance this against WHU, Liverpool, Man Utd, Wolves, Leicester and Chelsea all also having indifferent starts)

[VillaParkAvenue]

7 hours ago, Icarium said:

I think the last 3 games have done a lot to illuminate the thinking behind Gerrards tactics and why he achieved what he did in Scotland.

As we saw against Everton, its an effective tactic against teams that are coming to play for the draw. These teams are willing to give our defenders time on the ball to facilitate the build up play. If you have 70% possession you can usually turn it its a goal or two. This was much like how most Scottish teams would play against Rangers. Most of them play in damage limiting mode.

Teams that come to play make it very difficult to play this way, as we saw from Bournemouth and crystal palace. Goes a long way to explaining the Scottish cup failures, as the opposition have to come to play and expose the shortcomings of the system.

Very few Premier League teams are going to come and set up for the draw against us. Its why a version tactic was successful for Liverpool, as plenty of teams would set up to play for a draw/limit damage there

It seems to me Gerrard trying to adapt to a more possession oriented style is failing. When SG arrived, he focused on things like the distances within the team and making us tighter. Villa defended their way to a few wins during the new manager bounce.

Since the new year he has tried to make us into more of a possession side, without some of the things such a side needs: playing a high line and pressing from the front. It hasn't worked and we still can't break down teams that sit back deep. We're also useless in possession when other teams press us. Villa's only few good games this year have been against the best teams, when we haven't been trying to dominate and instead played on the counter.

[CVByrne]

I wonder if there is an alternative option to Sarr the club were also looking at.

I have to hope an 8 and a CB were already lined up for the next week 

Sarr pointed to a change in how we are set up. 

Edited August 22, 2022 by CVByrne

[duke313]

This whole pre-season has been wasted to play a system that just doesn't work.  Ramsey and McGinn are far more effective in attack, but are having to spend the whole game defending. 

Just pick a formation that allows you play your 11 best players, and i'm sure we'd win some games.

[TRO]

30 minutes ago, thunderball said:

We took a risk that hasn’t had a glimmer of looking like it might work. We have a very good squad, but Traore and Sanson are not two players I would have down as needing to be sold. AEG, Trez, Nakamba, Haus, Davis all yes, this is the bloat. 

We changed tack when we signed Gerrard and it really looks like a poor group of decisions, and the Ings signing was also dubious. All of a sudden we look a mess, with Brighton, Leeds, Newcastle and particularly Arsenal making very good collective decisions.

McGinn for me should be sold or out of the 1st team starter consideration. I also think we need better than Mings and Konsa. These are holding us back.

Also every successful team presses or has a physical/atheletic style, we don’t.

I think we need a very solid, experienced, current manager to steady the ship and demand respect and authority due to conviction and record.

(I would balance this against WHU, Liverpool, Man Utd, Wolves, Leicester and Chelsea all also having indifferent starts)

Central to our issues, for some time, now.

[TRO]

1 hour ago, DCJonah said:

Of course but it can't just be a manager replacing every single player. 

Smith didn't need to do that when he replaced Bruce. 

Palace, Newcastle and Leeds seem to be recruiting well and getting the best out of current players. 

Our new signings are adding nothing and no player already there has got better. 

 

I agree.

In some instances worse.

[allani]

6 minutes ago, thunderball said:

We took a risk that hasn’t had a glimmer of looking like it might work. We have a very good squad, but Traore and Sanson are not two players I would have down as needing to be sold. AEG, Trez, Nakamba, Haus, Davis all yes, this is the bloat. 

We changed tack when we signed Gerrard and it really looks like a poor group of decisions, and the Ings signing was also dubious. All of a sudden we look a mess, with Brighton, Leeds, Newcastle and particularly Arsenal making very good collective decisions.

McGinn for me should be sold or out of the 1st team starter consideration. I also think we need better than Mings and Konsa. These are holding us back.

Also every successful team presses or has a physical/atheletic style, we don’t.

I think we need a very solid, experienced, current manager to steady the ship and demand respect and authority due to conviction and record.

(I would balance this against WHU, Liverpool, Man Utd, Wolves, Leicester and Chelsea all also having indifferent starts)

Can you imagine the reaction on here if Gerrard / Purslow / Lange had sold our three best prospects this summer like Brighton did????

I actually think the players we have recruited all make sense (as have most of the signings since the owners took over).  We've been hurt by FFP and the atrocious recruitment decisions of the previous regime - which both meant that we had to take a pretty short-term view for the first couple of years.  These players were always going to need to be replaced as our targets / expectations increased.  The chance of finding 18 players who can go from the Championship to the Top 8 of the PL is incredibly low (otherwise every team would be doing it).

But over the last few months - we've added some valuable experience to the team (unfortunate that Carlos will miss out for so long), we've closed several gaps / holes in the squad and we've signed several really exciting prospects into the academy - as well as securing longer term deals with several of those academy players who look like they are going to step up to the first team squad in the next two or three seasons.  There is also a clear pathway into the first team for many of those top academy prospects that isn't being blocked by new signings.  So I actually think the majority of the decisions we have made recently have been pretty good and at least on a par with those of most of clubs you mention.

Gerrard was a gamble - but I can see why the Board thought he was a gamble worth taking and in some respects he has raised our profile and allowed us to sign players that maybe we wouldn't have been able to without a name like his.  It is beginning to look like the gamble isn't going to come off.

I think that the big decision that we have got wrong is that we haven't recruited another CM to sit in alongside Kamara.  Maybe we do have a couple of options lined up and are just waiting for other things to fall into place.  I hope that is the case.  Although it is still disappointing that we weren't able to do that before the start of the season.  But sometimes that is just the way it happens when players / agents / clubs are trying to work through different options and opportunities.  The type of CM we need probably wouldn't see us as a preferred option, hoping to get a deal with a club playing in Europe.  Which is reasonable.  This has left us in a situation where I don't think the players we have can control the middle of the pitch well enough, Gerrard hasn't been able to find a way to resolve this (just as Smith couldn't before him) and our issues in midfield are causing our attacking options to misfire (Gerrard and Smith both struggling to work out which attackers to use and what combinations to use) and putting our defenders under too much pressure.  Digne is getting a lot of flack at the moment but if you watch how many times he and Cash have 2 or 3 players to mark because JJ and McGinn haven't tracked back it is ridiculous.

I still believe that if we get that CM signing right then we will see a massive up-turn in our performances.  Unfortunately, I think there are some big question marks on the manager now because his decisions to stick with JJ / McGinn as 2 of the 3 midfielders cause us to be unbalanced (although I don't think that Luiz, Nakamba or Sanson are the answer either) and to make McGinn captain (oh and to start Konsa who is clearly completely shot in terms of confidence).  So even if we do get that CM I am worried that Gerrard won't get the team playing to their full capability.  In terms of who the right person would be I know what you mean in terms of steadying the ship - but I am not sure that is what we need.  That would be a Steve Bruce type signing.  We don't need to steady the ship in that way.  We need someone who can come in and get the ship pointing in the right direction and get the players working as a proper crew so that we can actually make some strides this season but more importantly someone who can then lead us into next season and hopefully beyond.  It is difficult to find that type of manager who has experience competing with the Top 6, etc.  Most of the names proposed would be a risk - Poch would go the first time a CL team sack their manager, Potter would be making a big step from a small club with pretty low expectations to somewhere with huge pressure from Day 1, Rodgers has had mixed success over the last few seasons, etc.  But I would want us to be trying to sign someone who can deliver over the next 3 - 5 years rather than just be a sticking plaster for this season / next. 

I may have misread what you mean by the comment in bold - in which case I apologise in advance (as that would probably mean that we agree almost completely!!!).  I don't think we are in quite the mess that you do - although we could be if we don't address either the CM issue, the growing doubts over the manager or the issue with our performance levels on match day - or ideally all three. 

[TRO]

31 minutes ago, The_Steve said:

That I can agree with. What’s clear form both managers is our defensive weakness. We drop too many points from winning positions or draws into defeats. 

It has been clear to me for some time now, but we still look to sign offensive players.....and when we set up, we commit so many to attack, after that fIrst goal on Saturday, we should have shut up shop, for 10 minutes, and grew back in.....we are ******* gungho.....Have been and still are.

Carlos and Kamara, broke the mould,  because its been ignored for so long, but we need one more, in midfield....Carlos's injury, was a smack in the teeth, so we only have one defensive minded player in.

Can anyone tell me, Konsa is a better choice than Chambers or Hause?

The full backs, just have offensive thoughts in their minds, they are questionable in defending....the amount of times teams play around cash, and he is left for dead, is criminal.

 

 

Edited August 22, 2022 by TRO

[stewiek2]

Defensively a shambles. Comfortable against Everton and their first attack leads to a corner which we defended shambolically, then looked shakey the rest of the game. It doesn't help the defence that the midfield gives them absolutely no protection at all, and Digne and Cash being instructed to not even bother with their defensive duties.

[NeilS]

25 minutes ago, TRO said:

It has been clear to me for some time now, but we still look to sign offensive players.....and when we set up, we commit so many to attack, after that forst goal on Saturday, we should have shut up shop, for 10 minutes, and grew back in.....we are ******* gungho.

Carlos and Kamara, broke the mould, but because its been ignored for so long, but we need one more, in midfield....Carlos's injury, was a smack in the teeth, so we only have one defensive minded player in.

Can anyone tell me, Konsa is a better choice than Chambers or Hause.

The full backs, just have offensive thoughts in their minds, they are questionable in defending....the amount of times teams play around cash, and he is left for dead, is criminal.

 

 

I have bemoaned how many early goals we have  conceded over the last 12 months, and giving teams a head start on us. Pretty much all PL teams then easily shut us out for the rest of the match. Lo and behold we get our noses in front at the weekend with the first goal for a change and we immediately concede an equaliser. Like you say, we should have shut up shop and been well organised for a period of the game to nullify any instant comeback and then look to pick them off. It is worrying that we spend big on wages and transfer fees yet stil struggle to do the basics.

Konsa has been awful for such a long time, his reading of the game seems to be way off. I don't know whether he was over rated by us on here and is now being shown up, or whether he is lacking confidence, but he is a shadow of the player we saw 18 months ago. Chambers must come in for the next match as I have lost trust in Konsa.

Dare I say it but I think Gerrard may need to try two DM in front of the back four if we want our fullbacks bombing forward. One DM is not cutting it with this system with the current players, teams just rip us apart, panic sets in and our defence does their best Keystone cops impression.

Edited August 22, 2022 by NeilS

[duke313]

There is no reason we couldn’t set up like Newcastle did yesterday,

• traditional 433 with width provided by the inside forwards, St Maximin had a field day down the left against City high line. 
• full backs not as far forward
• midfield 3 more compact

Our squad is tailor made for this, and if we had signed Sarr he would have been devastating on the counter.