Team shape, tactics and personnel

[Tomaszk]

1 hour ago, DCJonah said:

And yet we sacked the last manager when we lost Grealish and had lots of injuries. 

Now we can't possibly aim for top half without a defender who played 2 games for us. 1 of which was an abysmal performance. 

 

Brexit.

Amusing.

[ZL-]

1 hour ago, Zatman said:

we also played defensive teams that played 5 at the back so it was pointless to go a bit more direct as was no space. I would like to see this stat after 8/9 games

Well we barely got above 300 passes in a game last season even against low blocks. We are already above 500 passes per game.

I agree let's see how the numbers look after some of our more difficult fixture but if I was a betting man I'd bet the possession numbers are going to be higher come the end of the season.

Does it mean we will be better for it who knows. What I do know is that most of the teams above us bar a couple of exceptions do play possession football however and whether we continue with SG or not it does make the transition to a better manager perhaps easier.

[Rightdm00]

26 minutes ago, VillaParkAvenue said:

Progressing the ball quickly often means hoofing it. Burnley were the most direct team before they got relegated.

It doesn't have to be. No one would have called us a long ball team under Dean. If you spread play and allow your ball carriers to go 1v1 you can also get quick progression. Palace did it time and again versus Liverpool yesterday and they probably can't wait to exploit those same gaps versus us. 

[Keyblade]

2 hours ago, DCJonah said:

And yet we sacked the last manager when we lost Grealish and had lots of injuries. 

Now we can't possibly aim for top half without a defender who played 2 games for us. 1 of which was an abysmal performance. 

 

2021: Lost Grealish -> added Ings, Buendia, Bailey (2 of the 3 injured/out of form til October) = we need European football.

2022: Added Digne, Coutinho, Chambers, Kamara, Augustinsson, Carlos (Carlos injured likely for the season) = we probably can't get top half.

The math is not mathing.

[daft]

1 hour ago, ZL- said:

Well we barely got above 300 passes in a game last season even against low blocks. We are already above 500 passes per game.

I agree let's see how the numbers look after some of our more difficult fixture but if I was a betting man I'd bet the possession numbers are going to be higher come the end of the season.

Does it mean we will be better for it who knows. What I do know is that most of the teams above us bar a couple of exceptions do play possession football however and whether we continue with SG or not it does make the transition to a better manager perhaps easier.

Indeed, I for one much prefer to see us play possession based football. It will be interesting to see how it holds up against the top half of the table (assuming Everton will be lower half here), and how we progress in breaking down the lower blocking teams when we get going a bit.

Palace will certainly use the same diagonal balls over the top for Zaha again, and hit us on the break to go 1v1 or even 2v1 against our defenders, which can become troublesome for our backline now that Carlos is out. We'll see.

[CVByrne]

3 hours ago, DCJonah said:

And yet we sacked the last manager when we lost Grealish and had lots of injuries. 

Now we can't possibly aim for top half without a defender who played 2 games for us. 1 of which was an abysmal performance. 

 

Of course we can aim for top half. But surely you can understand the role Carlos was to play in the team in relation to press resistant CB who has a strong passing game. We now have lost him for essentially the season.

Now Gerrard can persevere with how we wanted to play this season with Carlos and Kamara in the side. But what can happen is we fail to beat opposition press and we give possession back cheaply via hoofs up pitch when pressured or losing possession and conceding. 

This leaves Gerrard the same dilemma he had last season when he stopped us building from the back as much and the team were more direct. The teams style of play suffers because we've lost one of the two key players signed to allow us to evolve this exact style of play. 

If it was say Mings and Konsa and Mings was injured for the majority of the season. It wouldn't be as bad as Konsa is a similar player to Mings just less experienced and less vocal. We would still be able to play the style Gerrard wants us to play and we evolve.

Losing Carlos now throws that all up in the air. People can say Chambers can do it. If so why has he not become the starting CB? I don't know if he is press resistant or if his lack of physicality is too much of a trade off for Gerrard.

[Keyblade]

5 hours ago, CVByrne said:

Of course we can aim for top half. But surely you can understand the role Carlos was to play in the team in relation to press resistant CB who has a strong passing game. We now have lost him for essentially the season.

Now Gerrard can persevere with how we wanted to play this season with Carlos and Kamara in the side. But what can happen is we fail to beat opposition press and we give possession back cheaply via hoofs up pitch when pressured or losing possession and conceding. 

This leaves Gerrard the same dilemma he had last season when he stopped us building from the back as much and the team were more direct. The teams style of play suffers because we've lost one of the two key players signed to allow us to evolve this exact style of play. 

If it was say Mings and Konsa and Mings was injured for the majority of the season. It wouldn't be as bad as Konsa is a similar player to Mings just less experienced and less vocal. We would still be able to play the style Gerrard wants us to play and we evolve.

Losing Carlos now throws that all up in the air. People can say Chambers can do it. If so why has he not become the starting CB? I don't know if he is press resistant or if his lack of physicality is too much of a trade off for Gerrard.

To be fair, in the 2 games we played I didn't see us becoming more press resistant and it seemed like Carlos was just as happy to hoof the ball out as Mings used to be chastised by fans for. 

[CVByrne]

6 hours ago, Keyblade said:

To be fair, in the 2 games we played I didn't see us becoming more press resistant and it seemed like Carlos was just as happy to hoof the ball out as Mings used to be chastised by fans for. 

We were not playing high press teams so we were comfortable playing from the back. We will play high press teams though the top teams do it and well coached teams like Brentford and Brighton have done is superbly. Our system required Kamara dropping between CBs often who split and then we had a 3 4 3 or 3 5 2 build up in possession. Kamara and Carlos in the back 3 gave us two options who would be calm under pressure and be able to make the right decisions under the high press.

We now lost one of them so our game plan in building from the back against the high press teams will have to change as we'll be vulnerable. Go watch us at home to Arsenal from last season and see how it failed then against high press. Opposition will now tightly mark Kamara once he plays his first pass from the back and force him to play pass to one or other CB then engage the press trap on Mings or Konsa. 

[TRO]

23 hours ago, DCJonah said:

What was the point in sacking the last guy then? 

And why did people moan so much about us not finishing top half in his 2nd season in the league?

Now We're in our 4th year, spent a fortune on players and there seems to be an acceptance that We're not good enough. Shame the same reasonable people have only just decided to be reasonable when the manager has changed  

When bee's are given out for your bonnet, you must have been first in the queue.

What we are trying to do, and what we do, is 2 different things.....when SG has had his 3 years to sort out this team and we are still in this position, there will be a more focused debate of his tenure.

We have spent Money, but has it been spent wisely?.....some transfers have, some, not so sure.....

I am no going to compare SG with DS 2 different periods of development and different times in the job......I think SG should have done better, but for me, the team is still too easy to play against, and set pieces under both managers was our weakness....I thought that should be fixed by now....but high balls in the box create a laxative to them and us.

I think, until the team shows signs of NOT being easy to play against, then and only then, is it worth studying the league table.....This European dream, will end in frustration, if teams find it so easy to score against us, and we keep thinking we can out score that problem.

Edited August 17, 2022 by TRO

[Rustibrooks]

Hopefully our full backs vs Palace are not instructed to bomb forward a lot. Palace have good width and decent full backs that can get forward too and with Andersen's range of passing he can catch us out if we aren't careful with the diagonal ball out wide. I'm not sure if 4-3-1-2 is a good choice against a team like Palace.

[Tomaszk]

On 16/08/2022 at 08:57, DCJonah said:

What was the point in sacking the last guy then? 

 

3 hours ago, TRO said:

When bee's are given out for your bonnet, you must have been first in the queue.

What we are trying to do, and what we do, is 2 different things.....when SG has had his 3 years to sort out this team and we are still in this position, there will be a more focused debate of his tenure.

We have spent Money, but has it been spent wisely?.....some transfers have, some, not so sure.....

I am no going to compare SG with DS 2 different periods of development and different times in the job......I think SG should have done better, but for me, the team is still too easy to play against, and set pieces under both managers was our weakness....I thought that should be fixed by now....but high balls in the box create a laxative to them and us.

I think, until the team shows signs of NOT being easy to play against, then and only then, is it worth studying the league table.....This European dream, will end in frustration, if teams find it so easy to score against us, and we keep thinking we can out score that problem.

Don't think this answers the question to be honest.

If anything it just underlines why it's a good question the club should have the answer to. Hopefully they do, because it's not obvious at all.

[TRO]

4 minutes ago, Tomaszk said:

 

Don't think this answers the question to be honest.

If anything it just underlines why it's a good question the club should have the answer to. Hopefully they do, because it's not obvious at all.

I sometimes wonder, if you read things properly.

They ( The Club) are trying to do better, even if it isn't that much better.....No Manager is a guarantee....You should know that.

They sacked Dean and brought in SG to do better.......but one had 3 years and the other 9 months, so SG still has time to improve things.

but if you feel my opinion is inadequate....write to Purslow and ask him.

[DCJonah]

3 hours ago, TRO said:

When bee's are given out for your bonnet, you must have been first in the queue.

What we are trying to do, and what we do, is 2 different things.....when SG has had his 3 years to sort out this team and we are still in this position, there will be a more focused debate of his tenure.

We have spent Money, but has it been spent wisely?.....some transfers have, some, not so sure.....

I am no going to compare SG with DS 2 different periods of development and different times in the job......I think SG should have done better, but for me, the team is still too easy to play against, and set pieces under both managers was our weakness....I thought that should be fixed by now....but high balls in the box create a laxative to them and us.

I think, until the team shows signs of NOT being easy to play against, then and only then, is it worth studying the league table.....This European dream, will end in frustration, if teams find it so easy to score against us, and we keep thinking we can out score that problem.

Well this is where it changes and I guess where the confusion comes in. I don't remember fans saying, yes let's get Gerrard and wait 3 years to then try and progress the club. And this is in direct contrast to the message from Gerrard and players this summer that spoke about top 7/8. 

Now, I was very patient under Dean and I'm not someone who demands instant success but at the same time, if we were happy to be a bottom half team for the foreseeable future then I don't get why Dean didn't get the chance to see what he could do, especially given the challenging circumstances he encountered most summers with us. 

But as is obvious with posters like yourself, those demands you've had for the last couple of years suddenly dissappear because you now like this manager. 

It's OK, that's your right to do so, but I find it hilarious and will point out the hypocrisy when it's so obvious. 

 

[DCJonah]

33 minutes ago, TRO said:

I sometimes wonder, if you read things properly.

They ( The Club) are trying to do better, even if it isn't that much better.....No Manager is a guarantee....You should know that.

They sacked Dean and brought in SG to do better.......but one had 3 years and the other 9 months, so SG still has time to improve things.

but if you feel my opinion is inadequate....write to Purslow and ask him.

Did it take Dean Smith 3 years to accomplish his first goal of promotion?

Did it take him 3 years to accomplish the next goal of keeping us up?

Or then another 3 years to move us up the table?

You seem to ignore the fact that Dean met his targets early and did what he was brought in to do. We're still waiting to see if Gerrard can do that. 

I wonder if you'd have this level of patience had Smith replaced Bruce and not got us promoted for 2 years. Would you have said, well Bruce got 2 years so Dean deserves the same? I think we both know the answer to that. 

Edited August 17, 2022 by DCJonah

[Keyblade]

I don't like how we seem to be an experiment for an up and coming manager to figure out what formation he likes best. I would have thought we already passed that learning period under Smith. Look at more experienced managers like Potter, Conte, Howe etc. They very quickly imprint their style on their teams and get them playing in a specific way, because they've done this soul searching ages ago and have a clear identity now.

We're just an amorphous blob, shapeshifting almost on a game to game basis. It's been 9 months now and I can't describe with any confidence how Aston Villa play beyond "fullbacks high". It reminds me of the Bruce era. We have enough talented players to plod along and just barely be satisfactory but we'll struggle to break through the plateau this way. It's also an absolute chore to watch.

[Tomaszk]

13 minutes ago, Keyblade said:

I don't like how we seem to be an experiment for an up and coming manager to figure out what formation he likes best.

100%. What good is "having the pull" for players if we play poorly as a team all the time.

13 minutes ago, Keyblade said:

It's also an absolute chore to watch.

Trash.

Even in the season he was sacked Smith gave us some fun of Everton at home and Utd away.

Fact is, we're unlikely to win anything ever again. Football is bent to favour the top sides and will only get worse. Enjoying watching Villa is huge for me. Flat as a pancake at the moment, the atmosphere at Villa Park reflects the football we play.

[Delphinho123]

11 minutes ago, Keyblade said:

I don't like how we seem to be an experiment for an up and coming manager to figure out what formation he likes best. I would have thought we already passed that learning period under Smith. Look at more experienced managers like Potter, Conte, Howe etc. They very quickly imprint their style on their teams and get them playing in a specific way, because they've done this soul searching ages ago and have a clear identity now.

We're just an amorphous blob, shapeshifting almost on a game to game basis. It's been 9 months now and I can't describe with any confidence how Aston Villa play beyond "fullbacks high". It reminds me of the Bruce era. We have enough talented players to plod along and just barely be satisfactory but we'll struggle to break through the plateau this way. It's also an absolute chore to watch.

Good post. Totally agree. 

I’m losing so much faith in Gerrard. I’ve been fairly reserved on him up until now but I genuinely don’t think he has got a clue how to set us up to play. Our midfield isn’t great, but the system we play makes it even worse. 

I have no confidence we’ll beat Palace. We barely scraped past a very, very poor Everton side at home. 

We’re kind of in this perfect storm at the moment with a board that seem completely ambivalent when it comes to buying quality midfielders and a manager that makes his midfielders play in every position other than the middle of the pitch. 

Like you say, it just seems to be - allow the fullbacks to bomb on and that’s about it. 

[Marka Ragnos]

45 minutes ago, ChesterDad said:

Totally agree - with quality of some of our squad it’s very worrying that we lack any type of cohesion or patten, plus we are not great to watch.

I can’t figure out what he is thinking. I just hope I am wrong and it is all just waiting to click

Wow. Disagree. I'm no expert on formations and tactics, but even I can see pretty obvious and very dynamic patterns of players on the pitch, especially with the defense and wingbacks. The cohesion and link ups aren't always successful, I grant that, but to say there is not "any type of cohesion or pattern" seems incorrect. Example: At times, often really, you can see a perfect U-pattern across the pitch with Digne and Cash tracking back and the CBs dropping back further. It's very easily discernible and holds its shape persistently -- which may be another kind of problem, actually. I think the implied notion that Gerrard just comes out and spitballs ideas doesn't match up with what I've seen at least.

[Keyblade]

14 minutes ago, DCJonah said:

That's what I've wanted to see so far. Something to tell me we are on the right track and it's worth investing time in Gerrard. 

But what really is there to cling that faith on to?

I'm hoping it will come. I'm home we see more of what his football is about and that he gets the best out of what's arguably the most talented squad we've had since Houllier. 

Next 3 games will be very telling imo. 2 teams that are roughly around our level and Arsenal. If we compete well it'll give me hope.

[nick76]

16 minutes ago, Marka Ragnos said:

Wow. Disagree. I'm no expert on formations and tactics, but even I can see pretty obvious and very dynamic patterns of players on the pitch, especially with the defense and wingbacks. The cohesion and link ups aren't always successful, I grant that, but to say there is not "any type of cohesion or pattern" seems incorrect. Example: At times, often really, you can see a perfect U-pattern across the pitch with Digne and Cash tracking back and the CBs dropping back further. It's very easily discernible and holds its shape persistently -- which may be another kind of problem, actually. I think the implied notion that Gerrard just comes out and spitballs ideas doesn't match up with what I've seen at least.

Can’t agree.  There is little cohesion in this team.  The pattern you are seeing is probably down to having no options or game plan moving forward, so with no options the defence just pass it to one another.  That’s not game play or points to cohesion.  It’s one of the biggest issues I have that we don’t look like we have cohesion in the team, they don’t have a way of playing, know where to move for each other.  It sometimes feels like it’s the first time they have played together.