Subs

[MrBlack]

5 minutes ago, DCJonah said:

Compared to when? He uses subs almost every game.

Compared to before the last couple of games. Subbing AEG at half time, subbing Barkley at 66 minutes... things we've only seen the last few games, and never before. 

[DCJonah]

2 minutes ago, MrBlack said:

Compared to before the last couple of games. Subbing AEG at half time, subbing Barkley at 66 minutes... things we've only seen the last few games, and never before. 

He brought Davis on after 61 minutes in the first game of the season. He brought Trez on after 66 minutes against Leeds a month later. 

To be fair, he hasn't had to drag a player off at halftime before because no one has been as bad as El Ghazi was that half. 

[MrBlack]

1 minute ago, DCJonah said:

He brought Davis on after 61 minutes in the first game of the season. He brought Trez on after 66 minutes against Leeds a month later. 

To be fair, he hasn't had to drag a player off at halftime before because no one has been as bad as El Ghazi was that half. 

Which I guess is my point. He hasn't had the subs bench to make those changes and have the desired impact on the game, so hasnt done it with any regularity or consistency. 

Against Leeds,  we probably needed to change the entire team, everyone was playing that bad.

To me, he is showing more of very late that suggests it has always been about concerns over the subs ability, rather than an aversion to making subs, which is what I thought it was. 

[DCJonah]

2 minutes ago, MrBlack said:

Which I guess is my point. He hasn't had the subs bench to make those changes and have the desired impact on the game, so hasnt done it with any regularity or consistency. 

Against Leeds,  we probably needed to change the entire team, everyone was playing that bad.

To me, he is showing more of very late that suggests it has always been about concerns over the subs ability, rather than an aversion to making subs, which is what I thought it was. 

I think its more this as well. He's talked about how FFP restricts us from building a top squad right now and that it takes a few seasons in the prem to do it. 

The better our squad becomes the more I'd expect us to use it. Which is why I don't buy into the notion that its something he needs to learn. 

 

[nick76]

43 minutes ago, DCJonah said:

I think its more this as well. He's talked about how FFP restricts us from building a top squad right now and that it takes a few seasons in the prem to do it. 

The better our squad becomes the more I'd expect us to use it. Which is why I don't buy into the notion that its something he needs to learn. 

 

I agree, I like some of the players on the bench and if we are chasing a game then yes let’s throw some on to mix it up but our bench is weak when we are trying to defend a lead and I’m not always convinced it’s right to change with the options we have at the moment but that will change when we can get more quality in.

When the game is in the balance our best team is generally on the field so I guess what’s the point.  

Seems like some people want a change for the sake of it but Dean and his management team had a plan and when the game is in the balance, he still thinks it’s the right plan.  I’m ok with that.

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

2 hours ago, Phil Silvers said:

Thats the thing, a feeling a fan has is based on instincts, inexperienced instincts, stats would probably show that it isn't even an issue worthy of discussion. 

Probably true.

I think our stats are actually surprisingly good on that front.

However in the past, throwing away games towards the end was kind of our thing.

[nick76]

9 minutes ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

Probably true.

I think our stats are actually surprisingly good on that front.

However in the past, throwing away games towards the end was kind of our thing.

I don’t think it is now though is it.  Don’t we have one of the best records when we go ahead this season?

[Phil Silvers]

13 minutes ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

Probably true.

I think our stats are actually surprisingly good on that front.

However in the past, throwing away games towards the end was kind of our thing.

Its gonna take us a trophy to get over that dread lurking in the back of us fans minds, we aint Real Madrid but until recently we have had years of torture, massively under achieving for who we are.

Edited February 7, 2021 by Phil Silvers

[Vive_La_Villa]

Good shout to take this from the Smith thread. Fair to discuss it but it was starting to feel like it was the only thing managers get judged on! 

Edited February 7, 2021 by Vive_La_Villa

[sne]

Fwiw I think every manager at every club has the same in game data about his players that ours do about ours and mistakes and bad judgement happens all the time, even for the very best managers in the world or the likes of Steve Bruce, Bielsa and Eric Black.

In game calls are difficult even with all the data at hand. We've done great so far this season.

 

Edited February 7, 2021 by sne

[Xela]

3 hours ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

I get that some people go overboard with criticism, and I get that some are down right ridiculous.

However, I don't think it's right for people to be slammed and berated for having opinions and/or commentary with regards to subs ( And other things for that matter ).

 

 

 

What about if the viewpoint is so ridiculous it defies logic and is clearly posted for effect?

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

16 minutes ago, Xela said:

What about if the viewpoint is so ridiculous it defies logic and is clearly posted for effect?

I think I covered that in my first line mate.

As I said, some people are downright ridiculous and dramatic ( Post for effect etc. ).

There are also balanced fans, which I often times consider myself to be, who might mean no malice in their match/player commentary.

We often get blanket labeled with lines such as " Can't believe we are 8th in the League, after surviving relegation by one point and some people are still moaning " etc.we

Everyone agrees with the above sentiment re: progress i'm sure. We all want the same thing.

I commented in the Dean thread that when we were finishing 6th consistently in the Oneill era, some fans, both internal and external thought people were mental for " moaning ". But we knew we could do even better and were partially limited to Oneill tactics, we did not strike while the Iron was hot and steadily declined while our competetors progressed.

Similar scenario to a certain extent with Bruce, had some staunch defenders and could do no wrong in some eyes, and vice versa. ( Although totally different circumstances )

Basically, I think some of the extreme reactions to some of the posts are just as ridiculous as the initial posts themselves.

Similar to players, everyone has their favourites and dislikes, there is no one right answer.

Anyway, in the Grand scheme of things Deano has gotten things right and there is no debate there.

We are all going in circles with this topic to be honest. lol

Can't believe there is actually a thread.

Edited February 7, 2021 by JAMAICAN-VILLAN

[nick76]

45 minutes ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

Can't believe there is actually a thread.

As I said in my opening post mate, that I think it’s dominating Dean Smith thread and making (IMO) it a negative thread at a time when our manager is beloved more than any other manager in recent decades.

I love balanced debates but for this I think it’s unfair, over the top and I’d rather talk about other things in that thread but such is the constant conversation in that thread that I’ve brought it into this thread so people can continue to chat about it if they want....hopefully I and others can ignore this thread shortly and we can chat about other things in the Dean Smith thread. 

It means those that want to talk about it constantly can and those focus on other things can as well....win-win.  Another week of that in the Dean Smith would’ve had me in tears.  That’s why we have threads so we can chat about specific topics and also avoid specific topics if we wish.

 

Edited February 7, 2021 by nick76

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

11 minutes ago, nick76 said:

As I said in my opening post mate, that I think it’s dominating Dean Smith thread and making (IMO) it a negative thread at a time when our manager is beloved more than any other manager in recent decades.

I love balanced debates but for this I think it’s unfair, over the top and I’d rather talk about other things in that thread but such is the constant conversation in that thread that I’ve brought it into this thread so people can continue to chat about it if they want....hopefully I and others can ignore this thread shortly and we can chat about other things in the Dean Smith thread. 

It means those that want to talk about it constantly can and those focus on other things can as well....win-win.  Another week of that in the Dean Smith would’ve had me in tears.  That’s why we have threads so we can chat about specific topics and also avoid specific topics if we wish.

 

Fair play.

[Sulberto21]

Dean Smith out. If he made twenty substitutions this season every game we'd have won the Champions League last season. If you don't agree with my ridiculous analysis then boohoo.

On a serious note the Southampton game is the best example of when not to make a substitution because it can unbalance the team and concentration can dip. He didn't and we won. Look at Manure last night. The defender who came on made the mistake because he wasn't at the same intensity as the rest of them.

He hasn't got much wrong this season except for maybe the West Ham game tactically but that's another story. I think there's a little bit of mental fatigue but that's due to the schedule of the last 18 days. It should be better from now till the end of the season. Hopefully. 

[sne]

19 minutes ago, Sulberto21 said:

Dean Smith out. If he made twenty substitutions this season every game we'd have won the Champions League last season. If you don't agree with my ridiculous analysis then boohoo.

On a serious note the Southampton game is the best example of when not to make a substitution because it can unbalance the team and concentration can dip. He didn't and we won. Look at Manure last night. The defender who came on made the mistake because he wasn't at the same intensity as the rest of them.

He hasn't got much wrong this season except for maybe the West Ham game tactically but that's another story. I think there's a little bit of mental fatigue but that's due to the schedule of the last 18 days. It should be better from now till the end of the season. Hopefully. 

On the flip side (or flop) maybe the Burnley game was a game where a earlier sub or 3 might have helped? All speculation of course as we'll never know.

[OxfordVillan]

2 hours ago, nick76 said:

I agree, I like some of the players on the bench and if we are chasing a game then yes let’s throw some on to mix it up but our bench is weak when we are trying to defend a lead and I’m not always convinced it’s right to change with the options we have at the moment but that will change when we can get more quality in.

When the game is in the balance our best team is generally on the field so I guess what’s the point.  

Seems like some people want a change for the sake of it but Dean and his management team had a plan and when the game is in the balance, he still thinks it’s the right plan.  I’m ok with that.

I think Nakamba has proved that he’s a perfectly adequate player to do some good work off the bench, or indeed from the start. I think a few ppl, myself included, were especially critical after the Burnley game. That was a game that was crying out for Barkley to be replaced with Nakamba the moment we took a 2-1 lead, and probably Trezeguet on for Traore at the same time. I’m certain that those two changes at 2-1 would have helped us see the game out. It’s actually since that game that we’ve seen one or two more earlier substitutions. 

[Villa 59]

15 minutes ago, OxfordVillan said:

I think Nakamba has proved that he’s a perfectly adequate player to do some good work off the bench, or indeed from the start. I think a few ppl, myself included, were especially critical after the Burnley game. That was a game that was crying out for Barkley to be replaced with Nakamba the moment we took a 2-1 lead, and probably Trezeguet on for Traore at the same time. I’m certain that those two changes at 2-1 would have helped us see the game out. It’s actually since that game that we’ve seen one or two more earlier substitutions. 

I'll hold my hands up and say that the Burnley game is the only one where I've complained about subs  and yours are the same 2 that I mentioned. 

[Phil Silvers]

Please see Liverpool result for confirmation on what could happen when incorrect early subs are made

[Zatman]

On 07/02/2021 at 11:55, villa4europe said:

And seriously, has anyone got a stat as to how many games / points smiths villa have lost in the last 10 minutes? 

Which would then need to be analysed as to what subs we made in those games... 

We have only conceded 2 goals in the last 10 minutes all season in the league. Gundogan penalty and Lingard last week

last season it was 16, 3 after lockdown