General officiating/rules

[villa4europe]

1 minute ago, fightoffyour said:

Yeah offside should be offside. If you're on the pitch and not interfering with play or at least entering into the defender's thoughts then you're doing something wrong!

In this case, De Ligt was offside, clearly affecting the defenders, and then put the ball in the net. It should be offside, but in the current rules it shouldn't have been given as such (assuming that the other attacker was onside, as appears).

Even the winning goal, Joselu gains a massive advantage by being well offside until the final ball played into him. That should be offside as well!

Not seen the joselu goal ill go find it

The problem is the rules are written down on a piece of paper and at one point might have made sense, if de ligt was down near the corner flag when the first pass was made then not interfering might be true, and then they've tweaked it and changed it and changed their minds and interpreted it differently and the whole thing is a mess and needs resetting 

Not touching the ball doesn't mean not interfering, the defenders are playing him, it's impossible not to with where he is, he's therefore interfering 

[Mic09]

2 minutes ago, fightoffyour said:

Yeah offside should be offside. If you're on the pitch and not interfering with play or at least entering into the defender's thoughts then you're doing something wrong!

In this case, De Ligt was offside, clearly affecting the defenders, and then put the ball in the net. It should be offside, but in the current rules it shouldn't have been given as such (assuming that the other attacker was onside, as appears).

Even the winning goal, Joselu gains a massive advantage by being well offside until the final ball played into him. That should be offside as well!

On the 2nd Joselu goal, I disagree. He was not interfering with anything, he can stand there all game if he wants to. BUT as soon as the ball was played to him, he was on - so I see no issues there.

I am slightly bemused that in the world where 80% of fans are angry at letting play go when there is an offside (possible injuries etc) and VAR taking too long, yesterday the ref made a quick (rash) but correct decision and all of a sudden there is a shit storm.

Yes, I think the ref got lucky. But it was the right call, and a quick decision. So what is the issue? 

[villa4europe]

Seen the winning goal, yep that's offside, it's great defending, he's stepped up perfectly and played him off, again how is it possibly not interfering with play, the defenders entire action is based around him 

The idea that he's not interfering or not active or that that's a different phase is utter bullshit 

But from the highlights the game looks a mess, the disallowed goal where ok his hands are on kimmichs face but kimmich makes no play for the ball, he plays the man, to kanes penalty shout where kane barges the guy over fair enough play on then the defender does the exact same thing to him but kane wants a penalty? No mate, not a chance 

FWIW the real Madrid goal standing is a worse decision than de ligts not

Edited May 9 by villa4europe

[sne]

43 minutes ago, villa4europe said:

The answer is you **** off all this phase of play and interfering nonsense and just say when the pass is first made de ligt is off

With the rules that we have he's in the middle of 2 CBs holding a line, of course he's interfering, they're not playing one man but not the other, that's bollocks 

They've made a rod for their own back 

Is the correct answer. Even with AI helping out next season it still muddles the water of is the player interfering with play or not. Is AI gonna decide that?

[Davkaus]

11 minutes ago, sne said:

Is the correct answer. Even with AI helping out next season it still muddles the water of is the player interfering with play or not. Is AI gonna decide that?

I think it's worth clarifying that all the semi automated offside does is automate the drawing of the lines, it's still a human decision who is interfering with play, etc

[sne]

Just now, Davkaus said:

I think it's worth clarifying that all the semi automated offside does is automate the drawing of the lines, it's still a human decision who is interfering with play, etc

Yeah exactly. So the arbitrary interpretations of interfering with play and second phase nonsense is still gonna continue.

[fightoffyour]

22 minutes ago, Mic09 said:

On the 2nd Joselu goal, I disagree. He was not interfering with anything, he can stand there all game if he wants to. BUT as soon as the ball was played to him, he was on - so I see no issues there.

Just to clarify, it shouldn't be offside within the current rules. I would argue that it should be offside because he's interfering with everything:

When the player who passes the ball out to Rudiger for the assist takes possession of the ball, there's a Munich player goal side of Joselu. Here then does the "right" thing by getting out in a line with the other defenders to leave Joselu in an offside position, but then by laying it wide to Rudiger and quickly back in first time before the defenders have chance to get back, Joselu is now onside? Come on, this is ridiculous.

27 minutes ago, Mic09 said:

Yes, I think the ref got lucky. But it was the right call, and a quick decision. So what is the issue? 

On which part do you think it was the right call? Now I'm, perhaps confusingly, arguing for what is onside within the current rules vs. what I think should be offside, but there's evidence to suggest that the Bayern attacker (not De Ligt) who was closest to the defender was onside, so where is the infringement here (within the current rules)?

[sne]

Watching football from the PL and then other European leagues it's pretty obvious that the offside interpretation and especially the handball interpretation is different in the PL compared to a lot of other leagues. 

[sharkyvilla]

I think they should simplify it by saying anyone within the the width of the goalposts in the penalty box is interfering, as well as anywhere in the 6 yard box.  You could easily determine that using the technology and it can be consistently applied across all games.  It would get rid of the farce of having some officials give it in one game and then not the next.  Should be quick to get the decision too.

[fightoffyour]

4 minutes ago, sharkyvilla said:

I think they should simplify it by saying anyone within the the width of the goalposts in the penalty box is interfering, as well as anywhere in the 6 yard box.  You could easily determine that using the technology and it can be consistently applied across all games.  It would get rid of the farce of having some officials give it in one game and then not the next.  Should be quick to get the decision too.

Just the whole penalty box is not a bad compromise. There would be some farcical situations occur when lines are being drawn to see if a player's toe is inside or outside the area though.

[tinker]

1 hour ago, Mic09 said:

Honest question, what was wrong with the decision in your opinion?

 

Why was it flagged, the game should have continued and the decision made after via VAR, regardless of if its offside or not.

Its the type of thing a dad running the line at a kids game does. Its a complete farce that this has happened, the linesman and the ref are compromised by the whole sorry event, if I was Bayern I would be furious. 

[bannedfromHandV]

I’ve noticed a shift in offsides over the past month or so with a number of instances where the referee actually blows for offside before the linesman even flags for it (then of course the flag goes up).

Makes you wonder what the hell the actual process is these days for determining offside, far too much artificial influence on the game now, I long for the days of it being done on pitch only.

[Mic09]

20 minutes ago, tinker said:

Why was it flagged, the game should have continued and the decision made after via VAR, regardless of if its offside or not.

Its the type of thing a dad running the line at a kids game does. Its a complete farce that this has happened, the linesman and the ref are compromised by the whole sorry event, if I was Bayern I would be furious. 

Ok, we are in agreement here - and I think there were a few issues. Firstly, the lino raising his flag. He could just wait, it was very tight. Secondly, the ref blowing the whistle. He could also wait.

However, I believe that although the decision was rushed and unnecessary, it was an offside. 

If we had no VAR (and it seems most people want to get rid of it) I think it wouldn't even be a talking point.

In my opinion, it was offside. The ref could not tell it at the time (he was simply lucky) but it was the correct call. 

So I don't see too much of an issue here. If he was clearly onside, that would be a totally different discussion, it would be a disaster. 

[sharkyvilla]

38 minutes ago, bannedfromHandV said:

I’ve noticed a shift in offsides over the past month or so with a number of instances where the referee actually blows for offside before the linesman even flags for it (then of course the flag goes up).

Makes you wonder what the hell the actual process is these days for determining offside, far too much artificial influence on the game now, I long for the days of it being done on pitch only.

I'm pretty sure the lino tells the ref it's probably offside despite leaving the flag down, then the ref decides when it's ok to blow the whistle to stop playing and the lino sticks his flag up to show everyone.  Last night they just seemed to get the timing wrong and the ref blew the whistle too early.

[fightoffyour]

52 minutes ago, Mic09 said:

Ok, we are in agreement here - and I think there were a few issues. Firstly, the lino raising his flag. He could just wait, it was very tight. Secondly, the ref blowing the whistle. He could also wait.

However, I believe that although the decision was rushed and unnecessary, it was an offside. 

If we had no VAR (and it seems most people want to get rid of it) I think it wouldn't even be a talking point.

In my opinion, it was offside. The ref could not tell it at the time (he was simply lucky) but it was the correct call. 

So I don't see too much of an issue here. If he was clearly onside, that would be a totally different discussion, it would be a disaster. 

Do you think it was offside because the De Ligt was interfering or because they were both in offside positions?

This suggests the other guy wasn’t in an offside position:

 

[villa4europe]

10 minutes ago, fightoffyour said:

Do you think it was offside because the De Ligt was interfering or because they were both in offside positions?

This suggests the other guy wasn’t in an offside position:

 

That's annoyingly clueless 

[tinker]

1 hour ago, Mic09 said:

Ok, we are in agreement here - and I think there were a few issues. Firstly, the lino raising his flag. He could just wait, it was very tight. Secondly, the ref blowing the whistle. He could also wait.

However, I believe that although the decision was rushed and unnecessary, it was an offside. 

If we had no VAR (and it seems most people want to get rid of it) I think it wouldn't even be a talking point.

In my opinion, it was offside. The ref could not tell it at the time (he was simply lucky) but it was the correct call. 

So I don't see too much of an issue here. If he was clearly onside, that would be a totally different discussion, it would be a disaster. 

It's just wrong no matter how it's dressed up,  the intent from the officials was clear, not to give a goal regardless of if it was warranted or not.

As for getting rid of VAR, thats ridiculous from where I stand, it needs streamlining and maybe AI can do that. Can you imagine the Chelsea goal standing, without VAR it would have, cus the ref was crap.

[Mic09]

55 minutes ago, fightoffyour said:

Do you think it was offside because the De Ligt was interfering or because they were both in offside positions?

This suggests the other guy wasn’t in an offside position:

 

In my opinion De Ligt is off, he plays a major part in the defenders actions/calculations, and at the moment of the pass he is expecting the ball just as much as the other guy.

As for Mazraoui who headed the ball, I think he is on, but it's too hard to tell with the above line. 

[Mic09]

27 minutes ago, tinker said:

It's just wrong no matter how it's dressed up,  the intent from the officials was clear, not to give a goal regardless of if it was warranted or not.

As for getting rid of VAR, thats ridiculous from where I stand, it needs streamlining and maybe AI can do that. Can you imagine the Chelsea goal standing, without VAR it would have, cus the ref was crap.

I like VAR and am strongly in the VAR camp.

But my argument is 'if people want to get rid of VAR, they can't criticize this decision'. 

[tinker]

20 minutes ago, Mic09 said:

I like VAR and am strongly in the VAR camp.

But my argument is 'if people want to get rid of VAR, they can't criticize this decision'. 

Vars here now, can't decide half way through a game to not use it. If anyone can defend it then their a lost cause to the principle of fair play.