villa4europe Posted October 2, 2023 Share Posted October 2, 2023 6 minutes ago, foreveryoung said: MIke Dean hated working in the VAR office, which is a big reason he retired. I think most hate working in there, these guys signed up to being referees, not sitting in a office monitoring computer screens. I think that's a big part of it and always thought it needs it's own staff, who can cope under pressure, not the people who work on the pitch. It's like going from being a brick layer, to the technical side of house building sitting in a office, you wouldn't be interested. That's something else FIFA get right that PGMOL dont They have Vars, specially trained and several of them in the room, there's no reason why it has to be a pitch ref 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
punkiller1981 Posted October 2, 2023 Share Posted October 2, 2023 11 hours ago, Tommo_b said: Let’s just get rid of var, human error we can forgive, but human error when we have technology that is suppose to stop human error and also ruins the enjoyment of celebrating a goal has to go I agree completely, football is full of errors by players and officials that’s what makes it such a great game. As long as a ref isn’t cheating then I can cope with the mistakes as long as they are just genuine mistakes, I never signed up to the idea that you had to get to the right outcome regardless of how and how long you take to get to a decision. I want to be entertained which comes with the acceptance that decisions may not be 100% correct, I don’t want 5 minutes to be wasted by incompetent officials looking at a slow motion replay completely misrepresenting something and then the officials still getting it wrong. All VAR does is give bad ref’s a chance to make bad decisions while watching tv rather than just in real time. Ultimately with the exception of tight offsides which are hard to get right VAR became a thing because bad officials made bad decisions that nobody could understand because these guys don’t actually understand the mechanics of football and how players move etc so no they have more ways not to understand. I really am not sure what was do broken with football before VAR? Had people stopped watching because of poor decisions ? I doubt it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post StefanAVFC Posted October 2, 2023 Author Popular Post Share Posted October 2, 2023 As much as it's benefitted us recently, they need to stop having a still image of the contact on the screen when the ref is sent there. They need to see the incident, in full speed, without any comments in their ear first. Then slow motion, and a discussion. Instead they're presented with a narrative they should follow already. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desensitized43 Posted October 2, 2023 Share Posted October 2, 2023 We need to hear the discussions in real time. There's no reason not to do it other than to shield the bad referees from any criticism of their flawed decision-making. If they did that we'd all know who the shit refs were before they ended up making a catastrophic error and there'd be an incentive to do something about it and improve the situation. We'd all see how they got to the decisions they've made and then you can discuss the refs who clearly don't know what they're doing. FWIW the problem at the weekend is only 50% human error...The other 50% is purely a process problem. They've gone too far in telling the refs when they can use VAR and not, what it can be used for and even going as far as telling them the words they can use "check complete etc"...a 10 second conversation should have sorted that situation out "oh I thought the onfield decision was goal, in that case...." but they aren't allowed to have proper discussions and actually get to the right of a situation. It's all built around trying not to undermine the onfield refs authority, not re-referee the game, not slow down the game and not take any accountability rather than actually trying to get the correct decisions. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrBlack Posted October 2, 2023 Share Posted October 2, 2023 1 minute ago, desensitized43 said: We need to hear the discussions in real time. There's no reason not to do it other than to shield the bad referees from any criticism of their flawed decision-making. If they did that we'd all know who the shit refs were before they ended up making a catastrophic error and there'd be an incentive to do something about it and improve the situation. We'd all see how they got to the decisions they've made and then you can discuss the refs who clearly don't know what they're doing. FWIW the problem at the weekend is only 50% human error...The other 50% is purely a process problem. They've gone too far in telling the refs when they can use VAR and not, what it can be used for and even going as far as telling them the words they can use "check complete etc"...a 10 second conversation should have sorted that situation out "oh I thought the onfield decision was goal, in that case...." but they aren't allowed to have proper discussions and actually get to the right of a situation. It's all built around trying not to undermine the onfield refs authority, not re-referee the game, not slow down the game and not take any accountability rather than actually trying to get the correct decisions. As had been said, rugby implemented it in a way that the ref asks the var whether there is any reason not to award a try. It makes the ask specific. The response confirms several times what the ref can do, then the ref confirms what he is doing. Its so clear that the odds of them making the wrong call after interpreting what has happened correctly are zero. Football were late to the party but decided they wanted to learn from their own mistakes rather than copying the learnings already made. Well they've made their mistakes now, perhaps they can accept they've got it wrong and go back to the drawing board. Liverpool thinking they have any grounds to overturn the result is amusing, they'll not got anywhere banging that drum. It's bad, but it's not the first goal that's been incorrectly ruled out or given even this season, and won't be the last. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foreveryoung Posted October 2, 2023 Share Posted October 2, 2023 I guess it didnt help that the VAR referees came back from refereeing in the Saudi pro league the day before. I mean who the f*** sanctioned that??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desensitized43 Posted October 2, 2023 Share Posted October 2, 2023 4 minutes ago, foreveryoung said: I guess it didnt help that the VAR referees came back from refereeing in the Saudi pro league the day before. I mean who the f*** sanctioned that??? The accountants at PGMOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desensitized43 Posted October 2, 2023 Share Posted October 2, 2023 5 minutes ago, MrBlack said: As had been said, rugby implemented it in a way that the ref asks the var whether there is any reason not to award a try. It makes the ask specific. The response confirms several times what the ref can do, then the ref confirms what he is doing. Its so clear that the odds of them making the wrong call after interpreting what has happened correctly are zero. Football were late to the party but decided they wanted to learn from their own mistakes rather than copying the learnings already made. Well they've made their mistakes now, perhaps they can accept they've got it wrong and go back to the drawing board. Liverpool thinking they have any grounds to overturn the result is amusing, they'll not got anywhere banging that drum. It's bad, but it's not the first goal that's been incorrectly ruled out or given even this season, and won't be the last. Yeah I'm not sure what they're hoping to achieve with their statement. They'd have done better calling for a better implementation of VAR in the future but it reads like a child kicking off at their under 11s game. They've got to be willing to learn from the mistakes but the pace of change in football has been so glacially slow and the lack of transparency over decades has been so absent it's bordering on suspicious...I'm certainly not a conspiracy theorist but they've fed the fire of those who say that there's other forces at work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davkaus Posted October 2, 2023 Share Posted October 2, 2023 3 minutes ago, desensitized43 said: The accountants at PGMOL I very much doubt PGMOL are seeing a penny of it, the refs will be doing and earning the money themselves. The trouble PGMOL have is that they need to pretend to believe that Newcastle and Man City aren't state owned which makes the conflict of interest tricky to pursue, and relying on the "fatigue" justification doesn't always cut out the possibility of the refs moonlighting when they don't have a PL game at the weekend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrBlack Posted October 2, 2023 Share Posted October 2, 2023 Just now, foreveryoung said: I guess it didnt help that the VAR referees came back from refereeing in the Saudi pro league the day before. I mean who the f*** sanctioned that??? I'm not sure this is a stick to beat them with in terms of the so called human error. Morally it is questionable, and there's an element of "are they being bribed whilst they're over there", but blaming it on the tiredness of the VAR after having been on a flight the day before is a person problem, not a process problem. If you arrive in London on Friday (and the timezones are only 3hrs different) and can't get yourself rested in time for a job at 3 pm on Saturday it's a you problem. The process part of the problem was that it didn't accommodate such a brain dead action by a person (whether tired or incompetent), but the VAR should have been fully able to function the following afternoon. And the process shouldn't be so bad as to allow that to happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desensitized43 Posted October 2, 2023 Share Posted October 2, 2023 2 minutes ago, Davkaus said: I very much doubt PGMOL are seeing a penny of it, the refs will be doing and earning the money themselves. The trouble PGMOL have is that they need to pretend to believe that Newcastle and Man City aren't state owned which makes the conflict of interest tricky to pursue, and relying on the "fatigue" justification doesn't always cut out the possibility of the refs moonlighting when they don't have a PL game at the weekend. I'm not sure. There's surely a clause in their contracts that says they can't take on refereeing work they've not sanctioned. When have you ever known something involving the Saudi's where money wasn't involved? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villa4europe Posted October 2, 2023 Share Posted October 2, 2023 15 minutes ago, MrBlack said: As had been said, rugby implemented it in a way that the ref asks the var whether there is any reason not to award a try. It makes the ask specific. The response confirms several times what the ref can do, then the ref confirms what he is doing. Its so clear that the odds of them making the wrong call after interpreting what has happened correctly are zero. Football were late to the party but decided they wanted to learn from their own mistakes rather than copying the learnings already made. Well they've made their mistakes now, perhaps they can accept they've got it wrong and go back to the drawing board. Liverpool thinking they have any grounds to overturn the result is amusing, they'll not got anywhere banging that drum. It's bad, but it's not the first goal that's been incorrectly ruled out or given even this season, and won't be the last. The NFL goes back to a specialist team in new York I think, they review every touch down and then the challenges and even then the ref has the option to go to the screen That's on top of the 7 refs on the pitch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrBlack Posted October 2, 2023 Share Posted October 2, 2023 (edited) 4 minutes ago, villa4europe said: The NFL goes back to a specialist team in new York I think, they review every touch down and then the challenges and even then the ref has the option to go to the screen That's on top of the 7 refs on the pitch There's enough money in football to put more officials on it for sure. But only at the highest level. They were alway very keen to keep football the same in the PL as it is in a muddy park on a Sunday. That's gone now so maybe they'll look at adding more officials. Makes the bribery angle much easier to wash away, reduces the odds of human error, relieves the pressure on an individual... not much bad about it. I guess the key challenge would be managing in such a way that the flow of the game isn't disrupted (and ideally less so than it is currently) But the easy solution to that is a challenge system. Nothing gets reviewed unless it gets challenged. Easy win? Edited October 2, 2023 by MrBlack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JPJCB Posted October 2, 2023 Share Posted October 2, 2023 44 minutes ago, MrBlack said: I'm not sure this is a stick to beat them with in terms of the so called human error. Morally it is questionable, and there's an element of "are they being bribed whilst they're over there", but blaming it on the tiredness of the VAR after having been on a flight the day before is a person problem, not a process problem. If you arrive in London on Friday (and the timezones are only 3hrs different) and can't get yourself rested in time for a job at 3 pm on Saturday it's a you problem. The process part of the problem was that it didn't accommodate such a brain dead action by a person (whether tired or incompetent), but the VAR should have been fully able to function the following afternoon. And the process shouldn't be so bad as to allow that to happen. Just a small point but I’m not sure the bar needs to be this high for there to be a conflict of interest issue here. Presumably the Saudi league/UAE league are owned/funded by the respective governments and the referees are remunerated accordingly. Given that two clubs are owned by those respective governments it’s really not hard to see how a conflict of interest can emerge. “We’re not gonna give you any more work in our highly remunerative league unless you give our PL teams more slack”. Reason number 657 why governments owning clubs shouldn’t happen 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted October 2, 2023 VT Supporter Share Posted October 2, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, desensitized43 said: We need to hear the discussions in real time. Absolutely this. They're trying to protect the refs by not having this, but it would have the opposite effect imo. You'd at least be able to see the logic and you'd end up sympathising with the ref. I saw a clip of a post game interview with Paul Durkin (ex prem ref) from years ago over the weekend. He was explaining two decisions he made in the game. One f them he'd got wrong. He basically said "I was expecting the ball to be cleared so I'd positioned myself closer to the centre circle. Instead it got blocked and Player X went down in the box. From my position I couldn't see any contact. I've seen it on the TV afterwards and it does look like there was contact, but unless I'm certain it's a foul I can't give a penalty. So I may have made a mistake on that one but I couldn't give it from what I'd seen" (I've paraphrased anyway) Totally reasonable. He's made a mistake, he's explained what he's done and why he's not given it. You can't really argue with that. If we could hear those kinds of discussions in real time it would help loads. Edited October 2, 2023 by Stevo985 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wainy316 Posted October 2, 2023 Share Posted October 2, 2023 In a painfully predictable development, Liverpool (both club and fans) act like they're the only team to ever fall foul of poor officiating. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fun Factory Posted October 2, 2023 Share Posted October 2, 2023 It is still far too slow and there is nothing at the game to tell the fans what is going on. Poor communication. Replace all refs with AI would lead to a better result. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted October 2, 2023 Author Share Posted October 2, 2023 Don't mention the Hawkeye failure at VP 3 years ago Don't mention the Hawkeye failure at VP 3 years ago Don't mention the Hawkeye failure at VP 3 years ago Don't mention the Hawkeye failure at VP 3 years ago *Sigh* 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Albrighton Posted October 2, 2023 VT Supporter Share Posted October 2, 2023 Lol Sheffield United finished 9th in 2020. Maybe the error was so huge it had an adverse effect on them the following season. But otherwise I am sympathetic to the point being made. If this mistake happens in, say, Luton v Palace, it’s literally already forgotten about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrBlack Posted October 2, 2023 Share Posted October 2, 2023 9 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said: Don't mention the Hawkeye failure at VP 3 years ago Don't mention the Hawkeye failure at VP 3 years ago Don't mention the Hawkeye failure at VP 3 years ago Don't mention the Hawkeye failure at VP 3 years ago *Sigh* Eh? They didn't get relegated? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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