sne Posted April 17, 2019 Share Posted April 17, 2019 1 minute ago, Zatman said: Masia is a poor imitation in fairness, except an unbelievable generation they havent really produced a top player since 2008 except maybe Thiago Cough, cough Adama Traore ffs! It's a bit catch 22. They develop players who are indoctrinated in the Barcelona way of playing, but since they buy £300m worth of superstars every year there is no room for their academy players anymore. and since few or any other clubs play like Barcelona their academy players have a hard time adjusting to new systems. Players from say Castilla in Madrid don't have as hard a time adjusting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted April 17, 2019 VT Supporter Share Posted April 17, 2019 On 15/04/2019 at 20:12, turvontour said: Why are the keepers constantly made to play out? Ten mins in here at Watford and both keepers have had kicks blocked, because of overplaying. One resulting in a goal. Because keeping possession is a huge advantage, but you don't tend to notice it until it gets wrong. It's similar to people who used to say Schmeichel got lobbed "a lot". His advanced starting position was a huge huge asset. And yeah every now and then he got caught out, but the advantages every other time far outweighed that. Same here. The advantage of keeping possession instead of losing it half the time is a net positive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villa4europe Posted April 17, 2019 Share Posted April 17, 2019 1 hour ago, sne said: Cough, cough Adama Traore ffs! It's a bit catch 22. They develop players who are indoctrinated in the Barcelona way of playing, but since they buy £300m worth of superstars every year there is no room for their academy players anymore. and since few or any other clubs play like Barcelona their academy players have a hard time adjusting to new systems. Players from say Castilla in Madrid don't have as hard a time adjusting. adama was a player in a really poor barca B team, they've yo-yo-ed a bit recently, not getting the same caliber of manager for a start and barca kept the building but overhauled the academy a few years back, there could be an argument for say sergi samper, puig and abel ruiz but the quality isn't there, none of the eto'o foundation kids made it (cant remember the name of the striker who was in the same age group as traore who looked good) none of these south Korean kids that got them the wrist slap from UEFA made it the worry would now be that they are buying young and big (so are madrid, younger and more of them) de jong and Arthur should be their midfield for the next 10 years and Sergi Roberto was the last good one @Zatman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sne Posted April 17, 2019 Share Posted April 17, 2019 10 minutes ago, villa4europe said: adama was a player in a really poor barca B team, they've yo-yo-ed a bit recently, not getting the same caliber of manager for a start and barca kept the building but overhauled the academy a few years back, there could be an argument for say sergi samper, puig and abel ruiz but the quality isn't there, none of the eto'o foundation kids made it (cant remember the name of the striker who was in the same age group as traore who looked good) none of these south Korean kids that got them the wrist slap from UEFA made it the worry would now be that they are buying young and big (so are madrid, younger and more of them) de jong and Arthur should be their midfield for the next 10 years and Sergi Roberto was the last good one @Zatman Marc Bartra has had a stellar season for Real Betis fwiw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sne Posted April 17, 2019 Share Posted April 17, 2019 On AJAX and their success model: Quote The children are laying in their Ajax sheets & pee on them Ajax talents conquer Europe - here is the academy that created them After Ajax advanced to the semi-finals of the Champions League with a team built on their own talents, the football world is again asking what the secret is. But the success story of Ajax's legendary academy De Toekomst is hardly one of only dreams and joy. Instead, it is a strict financial model that has been as criticized as successful. A system that creates children panting with nervousness, teens who are regularly forced to measure their fat percentage and adults who either become world-famous stars or under-educated failures. This summer, Ajax will sell Frenkie De Jong to FC Barcelona for SEK 800 million, and right now, many speak for Matthijs de Ligt to join him in Spain. De Ligt came to Ajax as a nine-year-old and was named after the giant victory against Juventus in the Champions League's quarter finals for the "best young mid-back" of the planet by legend Rio Ferdinand. No one knows yet what the 19-year-old's price tag will land on but the nickel target against Juventus hardly pulled down the value. The second goal against Juventus was by Donny van de Beek who came to Ajax as an eleven-year-old. He is now valued at SEK 370 million. The Italian consolation goals were seized by Cristiano Ronaldo, who cost the club $ 1.2 billion to recruit from Real Madrid last summer. Released into the talent factory's heart After Ajax's unlikely victory against the financial giant Juventus, many again ask themselves how the Amsterdam club actually manages to raise talent for talent. The answer may not be as beautiful as many hope. Ajax prohibits players who have not yet written on professional contracts to talk to the media and the journalists who have really entered the talent factory's heart are, given the club's success, relatively few. In the summer of 2010, however, the club gave the giant New York Times a rickety street all the way into the Academy's soul. Already there were both De Ligt and van de Beek in the club. Scout kindergarten children The New York Times describes in its report an academy where all the focus is on developing football players that the club can then sell on. The money development in the international football has left Ajax behind and the club's only competitive means is now to educate million sales. In order to find the biggest talents, Ajax 2010 has a local network with 60 unpaid youth scouts who, with tickets for the a-team matches as the only substitute, travel around and watch youth football on weekends. When the New York Times is in the Netherlands, they can make the scout Ronald de Jong party on such a journey. They will then study a five-year-old guy de Jong had his eyes on for a long time. - I don't think he started school yet. I think he is still in kindergarten, says the scout. The volunteers follow some children for several years before they are either written off or deemed to be in the Ajax Academy. A professional scout is then called out from the club to make a final assessment before the child is invited to a test game. When the New York Times is in place, 21 players in the seven-and-eight-year-olds are tested against each other on tiny planks, to be compared to small hockey ranks. Alongside, the club's employees and assess their skills. In total, Ajax 2010 has about 200 players aged seven to 19 in their business. All are guys and live within just over 50 kilometers of Amsterdam. The children spend half their day in their regular school before any of the Ajax 20 buses pick them up at lunch. Then, more classes await with one of the club's 15 employed teachers and football training in the afternoon. Free business but few workouts The parents pay an insurance fee of EUR 12 per year (equivalent to SEK 125), but everything else is free, just like in almost all other Dutch football clubs. The twelve-year-olds do not train more than three days a week, with only one match per weekend. - They don't want the boys to hurt themselves or tear them out. They are their investment and what is the first thing a businessman does with their investment? He protects it, says Urvin Rooi, who has her 15-year-old son Dylan Nieuwenhuijs in the Academy, to the New York Times. Former Academy Director Jan Olde Riekerink: - We think it's enough at that age. They have a private life too, a family life, and we don't want to take it away from them. When they are not with us they still play on the street and with their friends. Sometimes it is even more important. Then they get the ball at their feet without anyone telling them what to do. When the boys are 15, the exercise dose is increased to five times a week. All the focus is on the players having as much ball contact as possible with lots of small-scale matches. - You do things over and over again. Then repeat it again, says Gregory van der Wiel who in 2012 left Ajax for games in French PSG. The game philosophy is Johan Cruijff's total football where the strategy is to have a large ball possession and run smarter rather than more than his opponent. At youth level, however, the matches are only education and the result is absolutely unimportant as Ajax's goal is to develop the individual players rather than the team as a whole. - We prefer polishing one or two jewels than winning matches at youth level, says former player David Endt, who has worked for a long time in the Ajax organization. Weight requirements for young people Players who have come up with some specific skills are trained extra individually. The New York Times gets to see, among other things, how a 15-year-old who has been recruited from another Dutch club can train on his own with a specialized runner. An 18-year-old who will take the difficult step from junior football to senior football will train alone with former national team player Bryan Roy. In the office, all 200 players in Ajax Academy have their own folder with curves on both sporting development and bodily growth. The club also has strict weight requirements on young people. On the youngest children, the body fat is not measured, but when the boys come up in the middle of their teens, they get at most 13 percent. When they turn 17, the figure should have been reduced to 12 percent. - The first time they go over, it's no big deal. We might suggest a diet. But after that we start a program with a dietician, the parents are called in and a special training program is being developed, says the club's physiologist Olav Versloot to the New York Times. During the workout, the coaches can also follow the players' heart rhythm. This is used, for example, when the players perform fitness tests by competing against each other in short sprinters with little rest between each run. "If they say they are out and can't do more, we can look at their heartbeat afterwards and tell them that" it wasn't what your monitor said. It showed that you were only 75 percent of your maximum. So you can do it again next week ”. They understand it and it is not a punishment but an opportunity for them to improve, says Versloot. "You can't have real friends in Ajax" Players are also constantly under threat of being thrown out of business. At the turn of the year, each player gets to know if they are safe or at risk. Test players are then taken in as side-by-side with the regular youngsters warring about the same places. - My best friend had to quit two years ago. I'm not talking to him much more. He thought I didn't care enough and I didn't help him. He was furious. Then I realized that he was only a football companion and that you cannot have real friends in Ajax, says a 16-year-old guy who has been in Ajax since he was eight years old. The father Urvin Rooi describes the brutal reality of the New York Times: - The puppies drink chocolate from Ajax cups and sleep in Ajax pajamas under the Ajax sheets, When spring comes, they become nervous. Then their school grades begin to deteriorate. They no longer sleep. They are peeing. Ajax has sometimes dismissed the wrong players, guys who later reached the absolute top elsewhere, but they only invest in children and young people they think can reach all the way. Physiologist Olav Versloot tells the New York Times that an average of 1.5 players per cohort reaches the A-team and thus a well-paid professional career. Some of the others continue to play in lower divisions, but the largest majority ends completely. Often after being forced to give away a proper academic education along the way. Many, therefore, according to the New York Times, go into the adult world less educated than their parents. The competition for the few places in the top also affects the mood of the whole club, Versloot says. - There is always a very tense atmosphere here, for everyone. But you just have to get used to it. "Would feel like wasted years" 15-year-old Dylan Nieuwenhuijs is one of the few youth players who is setting up an interview with the New York Times. He believes that two or three of the players he started with at age seven will have a professional career. - I would feel very bad if I'm not one of them. I've tried everything I can to do it. I have not tried so much in school as I could have so if I did not succeed it would feel like I was throwing away these years. It would make me very sad. The New York Times asks if Dylan has learned something else in Ajax that he can bring with him into a regular professional life. Focus, perseverance or the ability to perform under pressure? - No. We train for football and not for anything else. Two years after the New York Times article was published, Dylan Nieuwenhuijs left Ajax for games in Ado The Hague. Nieuwenhuijs, however, never managed to reach the a-team there either, and ended the summer of 2018 with professional football after also belonging to Go Ahead Eagles and Almere City. https://www.aftonbladet.se/sportbladet/fotboll/a/4qOE7V/barnen-ligger-i-ajax-lakan--kissar-pa-sig As always it is Google translated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Rev Posted April 17, 2019 Share Posted April 17, 2019 6 hours ago, sne said: Fwiw AJAX is considered the evil empire in Holland. Vacuuming up every young talent for free from other teams academies as soon as they show any glimpse of talent. They've been doing it for 40-50 years. But I do enjoy seeing them this season. Hope they win it. They wont thou. Oh I agree on that front but there are economies of scale at play here and at least Ajax don't receive what is effectively state aid or have a long history of institutional cheating. They play that sexy football too. As for La Masia? I get the argument that it's dried up a bit of late but things are cyclical and the standard required to hit the Barcelona first team is incredibly high. I don't think you can argue against its success though, I think about five years ago they were top of the league, 4-0 up against Levante and all 11 players on the pitch were graduates of La Masia. That's just phenomenal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sne Posted April 17, 2019 Share Posted April 17, 2019 20 minutes ago, The_Rev said: Oh I agree on that front but there are economies of scale at play here and at least Ajax don't receive what is effectively state aid or have a long history of institutional cheating. They play that sexy football too. As for La Masia? I get the argument that it's dried up a bit of late but things are cyclical and the standard required to hit the Barcelona first team is incredibly high. I don't think you can argue against its success though, I think about five years ago they were top of the league, 4-0 up against Levante and all 11 players on the pitch were graduates of La Masia. That's just phenomenal. La Masia is fantastic. It's just that since the 14/15 season the have bought players for roughly 850 millions Euros in their twisted arms race with Real and Man C. The ridiculous money involved puts pressure on managers to play certain players and the academy players slip further down the hierarchy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sne Posted April 17, 2019 Share Posted April 17, 2019 (edited) PSG seem to have gone on holiday since the Man U defeat. 3-1 down to Nantes now after the record defeat to Lille over the weekend. Granted they are fielding a 2nd string 11. Nothing to play for I guess, but still. They've shipped 26 goals in the league this season, 10 of those have come in the last 3 games. Edited April 17, 2019 by sne Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BleedClaretAndBlue Posted April 17, 2019 Share Posted April 17, 2019 What a start to this game Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sne Posted April 17, 2019 Share Posted April 17, 2019 Somewhat entertaining start to the game Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BleedClaretAndBlue Posted April 17, 2019 Share Posted April 17, 2019 2-2 this is Villa-Bolton opening day all over again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theboyangel Posted April 17, 2019 Share Posted April 17, 2019 (edited) So how many do city need to score now? Edited April 17, 2019 by theboyangel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rodders0223 Posted April 17, 2019 Share Posted April 17, 2019 Just now, theboyangel said: So how many do city need to score now? With Ederson in nets? About 14. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
S-Platt Posted April 17, 2019 VT Supporter Share Posted April 17, 2019 1 minute ago, theboyangel said: So how many do city need to score now? 2 more than spurs 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutByEaster? Posted April 17, 2019 Moderator Share Posted April 17, 2019 Cagey stuff this eh? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_Pangloss Posted April 17, 2019 Share Posted April 17, 2019 Ederson is so damn overrated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_Pangloss Posted April 17, 2019 Share Posted April 17, 2019 Lloris is absolutely despicable, pathetic for that goal, may as well have no one between the sticks, just as effective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted April 17, 2019 Share Posted April 17, 2019 That's offside. It's not going to be given Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom_avfc Posted April 17, 2019 Share Posted April 17, 2019 Just now, StefanAVFC said: That's offside. It's not going to be given It is. Shows the value of VAR to be fair. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted April 17, 2019 Share Posted April 17, 2019 1 minute ago, tom_avfc said: It is. Shows the value of VAR to be fair. Yep. It's offside so it's a good use of it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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