Racism Part two

[Chindie]

Racism part 3 - Rise of the Machines really let the side down I feel.

[lexicon]

9 minutes ago, mjmooney said:

If there's one thing I hate more than racism, it's racism part two. 

It's back... and with a vengeance!

[Xela]

1 hour ago, lexicon said:

It's back... and with a vengeance!

"I'll be black.... I mean, back!"

[TRO]

2 hours ago, lexicon said:

@TRO - this is the place to debate things, I suppose.

Criticising blackface, for me, is not an example of things going 'too far in the other direction'. That argument is basically headed in the direction of 'it's PC gone mad', which is something not usually uttered by reasonable people.

IMO accusations of racism should be debated on a case-by-case basis. People shouldn't be afraid of speaking up and if the claims are bogus, then that should be determined. 

It's like the welfare system - while there might be a very small number of bad-faith actors abusing it, it's far better to have it because of the overwhelming good it does overall. 

I just don't share the notion that Monchies actions had Racist overtones. Other folk will have their own interpretations, which is fine for them.

I think some people get offended by certain things easier than others......It does'nt mean either is wrong.

I can only speak for myself, but when I feel racism is at play, I abhor it. In Monchies case I don't feel it is.

PS Oh and reasonable people can disagree too, and still remain reasonable.

Edited June 23, 2023 by TRO

[GarethRDR]

1 hour ago, mjmooney said:

If there's one thing I hate more than racism, it's racism part two. 

Second album syndrome, innit.

[lexicon]

1 hour ago, TRO said:

I just don't share the notion that Monchies actions had Racist overtones. Other folk will have their own interpretations, which is fine for them.

I think some people get offended by certain things easier than others......It does'nt mean either is wrong.

I can only speak for myself, but when I feel racism is at play, I abhor it. In Monchies case I don't feel it is.

PS Oh and reasonable people can disagree too, and still remain reasonable.

It definitely had racist overtones but I don't think that was his intention or it makes him an unequivocal racist. This is why blackface is best avoided, so as to avoid any confusion on the matter. 

Question for you, TRO. Do you know what it feels like to be discriminated against? Because it's quite easy for those who have always been in the ethnic majority to say 'I don't know why people get offended so easily' 

[chrisp65]

1 hour ago, GarethRDR said:

Second album syndrome, innit.

Sophomore racism.

Genuinely hate the word sophomore.

 

[TRO]

On 23/06/2023 at 17:36, lexicon said:

It definitely had racist overtones but I don't think that was his intention or it makes him an unequivocal racist. This is why blackface is best avoided, so as to avoid any confusion on the matter. 

Question for you, TRO. Do you know what it feels like to be discriminated against? Because it's quite easy for those who have always been in the ethnic majority to say 'I don't know why people get offended so easily' 

yes, I do....but I am not prepared to discuss it, other than skin colour was not the factor......But I agree with you in so much as, I have no idea, what it must be like to be a Black person in a predominately white country, or a white person in a predominately Black Country.

Only folk themselves who have been discriminated against will know, and I do respect their view.....but that is not my beef here.....Its when no intention is made to be offensive, but some folk find it necessary to be offended.....thats when it becomes tricky, and questionable.

I can only imagine, white people in countries where they are the ethnic minority may have a selective view of their own.

 

 

[tomav84]

1 hour ago, TRO said:

yes, I do....but I am not prepared to discuss it, other than skin colour was not the factor......But I agree with you in so much as, I have no idea, what it must be like to be a Black person in a predominately white country, or a white person in a predominately Black Country.

Only folk themselves who have been discriminated against will know, and I do respect their view.....but that is not my beef here.....Its when no intention is made to be offensive, but some folk find it necessary to be offended.....thats when it becomes tricky, and questionable.

I can only imagine, white people in countries where they are the ethnic minority may have a selective view of their own.

 

 

thing is most racists don't actually think theres anything wrong with their behaviour, so it could be argued that they are not intending to offend. the standard daily mail comment section response is something like "leftie snowflakes are just offended by everything these days" which is usually in response to an article about something that most would deem to be quite offensive

someone telling racist or homophobic jokes for example probably doesn't intend to offend...but that would quite understandably be offensive to a black or gay person. it's not that they're 'finding it necessary to be offended'. that being said, context is important. i'm a large fellow, and i joke about my weight with family and close friends. if a stranger made a jibe about it to me, i wouldn't take kindly to it at all...i guess that's the only remotely similar scenario i can personally relate to

as someone said above, racism is probably best discussed on a case by case basis. in the case of monchi, it seems to me reading his and this thread is that most on here seem to have given him the benefit of the doubt on that one.

[lexicon]

1 hour ago, TRO said:

yes, I do....but I am not prepared to discuss it, other than skin colour was not the factor......But I agree with you in so much as, I have no idea, what it must be like to be a Black person in a predominately white country, or a white person in a predominately Black Country.

Only folk themselves who have been discriminated against will know, and I do respect their view.....but that is not my beef here.....Its when no intention is made to be offensive, but some folk find it necessary to be offended.....thats when it becomes tricky, and questionable.

I can only imagine, white people in countries where they are the ethnic minority may have a selective view of their own.

OK, quite a few things to unpack here. Firstly, I don't think intention really matters in the grand scheme of things - it might after the fact as a mitigating factor, but anyone can be offensive without meaning to be. The question you might ask with blackface is 'what was the intention?' - and in any case, there's not going to be an answer that is going to really make the action acceptable regardless. 

Racism is basically tied to power dynamics, history and societal structure.  I don't think it's helpful to use the term 'white', seeing as there are many different ethnic groups that may identify as such. Nobody could possibly assert that Eastern Europeans in the UK are treated the same as White Brits, for example. In any case, the higher the status of the group in society doing the discrimination, the worse it is. 

As for white minorities in non-white countries, from experience, these tend to be in privileged, wealthy positions. Especially British and American expats. There's not the history of subjugation or persecution there - they're not being held back by elements of the society they live in. I have heard of discrimination of non-Middle Eastern people in the ME, so in the Emirates, an Emirati will always be believed in a 'their word against yours' situation. 

So with Monchi in Spain, you've got someone blacking up in a country that was an active participant in the slave trade (the history) and has quite a few issues with racism - most notably the Vinicius Jr. situation lately. I think it's perfectly conceivable why black people in Spain could have an issue with it and it's not really for anyone else to tell them that they're being too sensitive IMO. 

[sheepyvillian]

21 minutes ago, lexicon said:

OK, quite a few things to unpack here. Firstly, I don't think intention really matters in the grand scheme of things - it might after the fact as a mitigating factor, but anyone can be offensive without meaning to be. The question you might ask with blackface is 'what was the intention?' - and in any case, there's not going to be an answer that is going to really make the action acceptable regardless. 

Racism is basically tied to power dynamics, history and societal structure.  I don't think it's helpful to use the term 'white', seeing as there are many different ethnic groups that may identify as such. Nobody could possibly assert that Eastern Europeans in the UK are treated the same as White Brits, for example. In any case, the higher the status of the group in society doing the discrimination, the worse it is. 

As for white minorities in non-white countries, from experience, these tend to be in privileged, wealthy positions. Especially British and American expats. There's not the history of subjugation or persecution there - they're not being held back by elements of the society they live in. I have heard of discrimination of non-Middle Eastern people in the ME, so in the Emirates, an Emirati will always be believed in a 'their word against yours' situation. 

So with Monchi in Spain, you've got someone blacking up in a country that was an active participant in the slave trade (the history) and has quite a few issues with racism - most notably the Vinicius Jr. situation lately. I think it's perfectly conceivable why black people in Spain could have an issue with it and it's not really for anyone else to tell them that they're being too sensitive IMO. 

As Trisha Goddard said to Piers Morgan, "let's leave it to black people to say what's racist and what's not".

[Follyfoot]

32 minutes ago, sheepyvillian said:

As Trisha Goddard said to Piers Morgan, "let's leave it to black people to say what's racist and what's not".

100% agree, we know this from the people we have had the privilege to know over the years. Far too many assumptions made

[sheepyvillian]

19 minutes ago, Follyfoot said:

100% agree, we know this from the people we have had the privilege to know over the years. Far too many assumptions made

Absolutely. Can you imagine how all those "Black" Villa supporters felt in the seventies when the Holte- End threw bananas at Regis, Cunningham and Batson? And players are still having to go down on one knee today. It beggars belief. 

 

[Follyfoot]

40 minutes ago, sheepyvillian said:

Absolutely. Can you imagine how all those "Black" Villa supporters felt in the seventies when the Holte- End threw bananas at Regis, Cunningham and Batson? And players are still having to go down on one knee today. It beggars belief. 

 

And here we have a perfect example, the fella, who did so much for these guys, and black players in general in the game at the time  was vilified as a total racist.
 

Not excusing what he said but if he was such a racist why did he do so much to help and promote black players in the game at the time many would not? 

To make a pun, it’s not always black and white 

Edited June 25, 2023 by Follyfoot

[bickster]

24 minutes ago, Follyfoot said:

And here we have a perfect example, the fella, who did so much for these guys, and black players in general in the game at the time  was vilified as a total racist.
 

Not excusing what he said but if he was such a racist why did he do so much to help and promote black players in the game at the time many would not? 

To make a pun, it’s not always black and white 

There is no grey area when it comes to what RA said about Marcel Desailly 

"He's what is known in some schools as a **** lazy thick n-word”

It really shouldn’t be up for debate, there is no way to dress that up as not being racist.

[Follyfoot]

6 minutes ago, bickster said:

There is no grey area when it comes to what RA said about Marcel Desailly 

"He's what is known in some schools as a **** lazy thick n-word”

It really shouldn’t be up for debate, there is no way to dress that up as not being racist.

I quite clearly said there was no excuse for what he said. My point being is his actions and support and promotion of black players in the game suggests he was far from being a racist. 

Edited June 25, 2023 by Follyfoot

[sheepyvillian]

1 hour ago, Follyfoot said:

And here we have a perfect example, the fella, who did so much for these guys, and black players in general in the game at the time  was vilified as a total racist.
 

Not excusing what he said but if he was such a racist why did he do so much to help and promote black players in the game at the time many would not? 

To make a pun, it’s not always black and white 

No it's not, but it just goes to show how ingrained racism can be in white people, whether they're conscious of it or not. There can be no excuse for the adjective that Atkinson used to describe Marcel Desailly. It was ignorant and adhered to the stereotype that black players were lazy. I can imagine how mortified he must have felt when he realised or was told that the microphone was on. The very fact that he thought it was off, is food for thought in itself.

[TRO]

4 hours ago, lexicon said:

OK, quite a few things to unpack here. Firstly, I don't think intention really matters in the grand scheme of things - it might after the fact as a mitigating factor, but anyone can be offensive without meaning to be. The question you might ask with blackface is 'what was the intention?' - and in any case, there's not going to be an answer that is going to really make the action acceptable regardless. 

Racism is basically tied to power dynamics, history and societal structure.  I don't think it's helpful to use the term 'white', seeing as there are many different ethnic groups that may identify as such. Nobody could possibly assert that Eastern Europeans in the UK are treated the same as White Brits, for example. In any case, the higher the status of the group in society doing the discrimination, the worse it is. 

As for white minorities in non-white countries, from experience, these tend to be in privileged, wealthy positions. Especially British and American expats. There's not the history of subjugation or persecution there - they're not being held back by elements of the society they live in. I have heard of discrimination of non-Middle Eastern people in the ME, so in the Emirates, an Emirati will always be believed in a 'their word against yours' situation. 

So with Monchi in Spain, you've got someone blacking up in a country that was an active participant in the slave trade (the history) and has quite a few issues with racism - most notably the Vinicius Jr. situation lately. I think it's perfectly conceivable why black people in Spain could have an issue with it and it's not really for anyone else to tell them that they're being too sensitive IMO. 

Not always so.

My friend working in Saudi Arabia had a minor bump when driving, a car ran in to the back of him with an Arab driving....The police was called and the officer fined my pal on the spot....when my pal questioned the police's decision, he said "If you wasn't over here, it wouldn't have happened"

I think we all need to consider some perspective.....sure there are undisputed cases of which Vinicius Jnr is a prime example....but some cases are questionable in my opinion.

There will always be folk who have bigoted views, but I don't think Monchie intended to offend anyone....and thats the case in question.

Edited June 25, 2023 by TRO

[TRO]

4 hours ago, tomav84 said:

thing is most racists don't actually think theres anything wrong with their behaviour, so it could be argued that they are not intending to offend. the standard daily mail comment section response is something like "leftie snowflakes are just offended by everything these days" which is usually in response to an article about something that most would deem to be quite offensive

someone telling racist or homophobic jokes for example probably doesn't intend to offend...but that would quite understandably be offensive to a black or gay person. it's not that they're 'finding it necessary to be offended'. that being said, context is important. i'm a large fellow, and i joke about my weight with family and close friends. if a stranger made a jibe about it to me, i wouldn't take kindly to it at all...i guess that's the only remotely similar scenario i can personally relate to

as someone said above, racism is probably best discussed on a case by case basis. in the case of monchi, it seems to me reading his and this thread is that most on here seem to have given him the benefit of the doubt on that one.

Some Bullies don't either.

I think racists are well aware of their behaviour, but they don't care, if they offend anyone.

many of us have crosses to bear, in many guises......I am one who has given Monchie the benefit of the doubt.

[LondonLax]

On 23/06/2023 at 12:52, lexicon said:

 

Blackface is different, though, because it's not an outfit or symbol - it's crude, ignorant and has very negative connotations. You don't have to blindly defend traditions because they've been there for a long time - things change, life changes, society changes and what is acceptable can change too. The prism that we view the world and history through changes as our sensibilities evolve. 

Surely it’s a bit more complex than that though?

Blackface became offensive because the way it was used to mock a race of people in the USA in the 1800s. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minstrel_show

In an entirely separate part of the planet, in a separate era it could conceivably be a form of reverence, with the perpetrators totally unaware of what went on in the US. 

Now the world is more global we can get a clash of cultures, with both cultural groups failing to understand or acknowledge the other. 

Edited June 26, 2023 by LondonLax