Racism Part two

[chrisp65]

I’m not a racist, I was simply booing with the racists as I’m anti anti racism being promoted in sport.

The stuff people can train themselves to believe is quite remarkable.

 

 

[Wainy316]

Any excuse...

 

 

[tonyh29]

7 minutes ago, HKP90 said:

If it helps we could change it to a tannoy announcement saying 'don't be a racist dick'. 

it would be more effective than the knee tbh 

the problem as I see it is the knee was never going stop a racist bloke from being a racist bloke , if anything it strengthened their view .. bigotry seems to come with a trait of stubbornness and stupidity at the end of the day ...

We live in a multi cultural society , most if not all of us have friends , acquaintances who are of a different race , religion etc. we might not hang out with them regularly down the pub , or go to BBQ's at their house , but equally we aren't telling them to go back to where they came from . Generally as time goes the casual racists in society were kinda getting out the habit of being casually racist , they quite like Abdul that they chat to at the school gates ,  realise he likes beer and cricket the same as they do and there's nothing wrong with him .

These normal folk may not be as right on as your average twitter user , but equally they aren't  sitting there at home ranting like Alf Garnett , small steps and all that 

And then the BLM matters movement comes along  , followed by protestors on the streets during a lockdown , followed by statues being vandalised , followed by  TV companies running scared , followed by footballers ,  Politicians and police kneeling  and those same people who had almost moved on from seeing skin colour or religion , suddenly think to themselves that they are the victims 

its easy to sneer and say yeah well they are thick and idiots , but here in lies the problem , Jo Bloggs might not be as enlightened as your full on rabid leftie , he didn't have the privileged of being brainwashed by a bearded leftie professor as university  , but he was getting there slowly  .. the knee became more decisive and more harmful than what it was trying to achieve  .. so ,"Don't be a Dick"  would definitely have been more effective 

this is all In my humble opinion of course 

[His Name Is Death]

 

[StefanAVFC]

Rainbow laces is great, it's hugely unintrusive, yet still gets a shit tonne of negative abuse. It's never about mixing politics and sport, bigots don't want any excuse to be called out on their bigotry. Taking the knee, rainbow laces, it just reminds them how backwards they are.

 

[blandy]

3 hours ago, mjmooney said:

If you're opposed to taking the knee, you may not think you are being racist, but you are demonstrably aligning yourself with racists. 

I'm not opposed to it, but I think you're over-simplifying it a bit.

This is a deliberate hyperbole, but there are many things that racists do, that ornery decent folk do too, and that doesn't mean we align with the racists. So by that I mean some people have/had objections to the football taking the knee thing, that were important to them, and just because some racists also objected to the knee thing, doesn't mean they "aligned" with the racists. It's like if you are concerned and want more done about climate change, or animal rights you're automatically aligned with people who stand on the roof of trains, block motorways and therefore ambulances and etc....

I've mentioned before about having a good long chat(s) with a bloke in the pub, when I was on holiday and he (Black) was vehemently against BLM and he explained why. I didn't share his views, mostly, but I understood his perspective - about how BLM was also political in the traditional left/right sense, about how he felt the BLM people were kind of hijacking their shared identity, but using it to push for defunding police, politicising local politics to promote a particular world view, where he said that what people did over a hundred, two years ago was not the fault or responsibility of people living now - he said I (me, Blandy) bore no responsibility for slavery and that neither back people nor white people should be punished for what our predecessors did - that we are responsible for own actions, but not those of others and we should all be treated for who we are, regardless of ethnicity or race or nationality....and so on.

And so with the footballers, people looking at millionaires kneeling, when they are maybe impoverished, disadvantaged, overlooked, or think there are more urgent things to worry about, or who think the message is right, but the method wrong..., or that you believe "keep politics out of sport - it's my one chance a week for some escapism" -  I mean, I'm not one of them, but I don't think there's an implication that you're automatically racist, or align with racists is quite right. I supported the taking the knee and the message that treat people fairly and stuff, but then again I'm comfortable and (small l) liberal and support people being able to peacefully campaign or protest about injustice or discrimination etc. If I was (small c) conservative and poor, I might feel differently about "the millionaire footballers in the UK copying American marxist political activists"

[mjmooney]

29 minutes ago, tonyh29 said:

it would be more effective than the knee tbh 

the problem as I see it is the knee was never going stop a racist bloke from being a racist bloke 

That's not what it's for. 

[chrisp65]

4 minutes ago, tonyh29 said:

it would be more effective than the knee tbh 

the problem as I see it is the knee was never going stop a racist bloke from being a racist bloke , if anything it strengthened their view .. bigotry seems to come with a trait of stubbornness and stupidity at the end of the day ...

We live in a multi cultural society , most if not all of us have friends , acquaintances who are of a different race , religion etc. we might not hang out with them regularly down the pub , or go to BBQ's at their house , but equally we aren't telling them to go back to where they came from . Generally as time goes the casual racists in society were kinda getting out the habit of being casually racist , they quite like Abdul that they chat to at the school gates ,  realise he likes beer and cricket the same as they do and there's nothing wrong with him .

These normal folk may not be as right on as your average twitter user , but equally they aren't  sitting there at home ranting like Alf Garnett , small steps and all that 

And then the BLM matters movement comes along  , followed by protestors on the streets during a lockdown , followed by statues being vandalised , followed by  TV companies running scared , followed by footballers ,  Politicians and police kneeling  and those same people who had almost moved on from seeing skin colour or religion , suddenly think to themselves that they are the victims 

its easy to sneer and say yeah well they are thick and idiots , but here in lies the problem , Jo Bloggs might not be as enlightened as your full on rabid leftie , he didn't have the privileged of being brainwashed by a bearded leftie professor as university  , but he was getting there slowly  .. the knee became more decisive and more harmful than what it was trying to achieve  .. so ,"Don't be a Dick"  would definitely have been more effective 

this is all In my humble opinion of course 

I completely get what you’re saying, and annoyingly I both agree… and disagree. The reality is there are as many different reasons and thought processes as there are people.

But my problem, is that we are potentially arguing here that there are people not as educated and enlightened as us, that don’t have access to the latest woke inside line, so we have to accept the slow stream need humouring and a bit more time.

Except, that’s a bit flawed, in my opinion. It kind of presumes that those we disagree with must be less well educated than us with less ability for critical thinking and less access to the whole media and internet. But I don’t know the educational achievements of the drunk lads in the away end. They might be fishmongers and they might be forensic accountants, they might have gone to university or they might have dropped out at 15. I do know they’ve managed to find and rehearse the arguments for not supporting a nebulous good cause of anti racism, whilst seemingly struggling to be exposed to the reasons to support it. It’s like presuming all shouty racists must be thick with restricted access to just right wing newspapers and incel groups on facebook. I don’t buy it. It’s an active choice, not passive.

I’m not an exceptional person. I grew up in a docks town, didn’t go to university, I had jobs in shops, bars and as a nightporter. Several of my very small peer group in my very small community have done time. I’m a chunky balding middle aged white guy. I’ve never felt the need to boo anti racism gestures as it somehow threatens my culture. That doesn’t make me special.

How are these people that are slow to understand the advantages of anti racism, also able to digest and resist the threat of the concept of foreign Marxist franchises undermining working class traditions?  

 

[blandy]

33 minutes ago, tonyh29 said:

the knee became more decisive and more harmful than what it was trying to achieve  .. so ,"Don't be a Dick"  would definitely have been more effective 

Like @chrisp65 i agree and disagree. The bit I struggle with is that some footballers decided "we've had enough of being abused for our/because of our skin colour and we want to do something to say "it's not OK. We've had enough. Society needs to stop being **** racist". I completely support that. Most people do. It's a fair and peaceful gesture and message. Tannoy announcements made by a club lackey are indirect and even more transient and less visible and less impactful.

[tonyh29]

3 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

I’m not an exceptional person

I know , we've met remember  

but I agree with your post , I was looking at it in far too simplistic terms  in regards to the why 

[Stevo985]

Booing an anti racism gesture makes you a racist. Whether you like to admit it or not

[VILLAMARV]

11 minutes ago, mjmooney said:

That's not what it's for. 

The fact that we are all having this conversation long after it has finished means it has acheived it's objective and then some.

[Guest av1]

1 hour ago, HKP90 said:

Taking 5 seconds to support the disenfranchised. Not killing us to do that is it?

 

This 

[HKP90]

1 hour ago, tonyh29 said:

it would be more effective than the knee tbh 

the problem as I see it is the knee was never going stop a racist bloke from being a racist bloke , if anything it strengthened their view .. bigotry seems to come with a trait of stubbornness and stupidity at the end of the day ...

We live in a multi cultural society , most if not all of us have friends , acquaintances who are of a different race , religion etc. we might not hang out with them regularly down the pub , or go to BBQ's at their house , but equally we aren't telling them to go back to where they came from . Generally as time goes the casual racists in society were kinda getting out the habit of being casually racist , they quite like Abdul that they chat to at the school gates ,  realise he likes beer and cricket the same as they do and there's nothing wrong with him .

These normal folk may not be as right on as your average twitter user , but equally they aren't  sitting there at home ranting like Alf Garnett , small steps and all that 

And then the BLM matters movement comes along  , followed by protestors on the streets during a lockdown , followed by statues being vandalised , followed by  TV companies running scared , followed by footballers ,  Politicians and police kneeling  and those same people who had almost moved on from seeing skin colour or religion , suddenly think to themselves that they are the victims 

its easy to sneer and say yeah well they are thick and idiots , but here in lies the problem , Jo Bloggs might not be as enlightened as your full on rabid leftie , he didn't have the privileged of being brainwashed by a bearded leftie professor as university  , but he was getting there slowly  .. the knee became more decisive and more harmful than what it was trying to achieve  .. so ,"Don't be a Dick"  would definitely have been more effective 

this is all In my humble opinion of course 

It's well argued, but I disagree entirely on a number of points. You seem to be suggesting that society was moving on from a historic legacy of Racism, and that before BLM we were heading toward a state of multiracial harmony. This demonstrably was not true. 

Racially motivated hate crime in the UK was higher prior to BLM (which started in 2013), and decreased by around 30% after it (see Crime Statistics for England and Wales below).  

Secondly, yes it's easy to sneer and say racists are thick/idiots, but it's also easy to sneer at university educated folk, as you have demonstrated, dismissing them as 'brainwashed lefties'. That was not my experience of university, which was not particularly left wing, and valued critical thinking.

At the end of the day the reason that racists are cast as idiots is that it's a point of view that clearly has no intellectual merit. It doesn't take a genius, or a university educated mind to see that racism is stupid, pointless and wrong. It's not a leap to suggest that it's proponents are the same. To me, saying 'don't be a dick' and taking the knee are just two means to an end- trying to educate casual racists that their viewpoint is without merit, and showing support for the real victims here. As a white man, it's not my business telling the victims of racism what form that support should take. If taking the knee means something to those experiencing racism, it's good enough for me, and it also seems understandable that those invested in racist ideologies want to attack that symbol. 

Edit- I wasn't including you in that last bit btw. 

Edited May 23, 2023 by HKP90

[Rustibrooks]

From the perspective of someone that’s a black Brit I can say that I have mixed feelings with BLM if I’m being honest. I believe in the movement, as there’s a lot of injustices towards black people around the world and especially in the western world. Some of the things I’ve been a victim of and it’s really shitty, some I’ve just heard about from family friends etc.

Now when football players were taking the knee, like most people I was proud and it felt like quite a big turning point at the time. I thought that maybe we are going to have some honest discussions and hopefully start a path to being a near anti racist country. Football has one of the biggest platforms to display messages so it seemed a good idea. Plus I’m a believer that sports and society are intertwined, so bringing an issue of racism to the forefront of the biggest sport in the world seemed to be an amazing idea.

However I had some issues as time went on, I think Zaha pretty much highlighted it for me. I started to appreciate the gesture and for the most part I still do, but I also started to hate it a bit because things were still happening. It’s been my issue with a lot of anti racist campaigns, in my opinion there’s still not enough done. I’m not advocating for defunding the police etc. However it would be nice if the punishments for committing offences that are related to hate to be tougher. At times it felt like companies/people just used that moment just to promote themselves or make it seem like they are doing something and when you dig a bit deeper they are not.

The sad thing is (and I’m not accusing anyone here of doing so) that a lot of racist have used what black people have said/felt about BLM and have used it for their own agendas. For football I can’t tell you the appropriate punishment or way to deal this, I’m not sure if stadium bans for fans work. I’ve seen suggestions that say docking teams points if their fans make any hateful comments. Who knows, I just hope one day in my lifetime I get to see a real change. We are slowly getting there, but I think there’s still a lot of work to do.

[blandy]

10 minutes ago, Rustibrooks said:

I’m not sure if stadium bans for fans work

I guess they remove the racist from the stadium, which is a positive. They also punish the racist by not letting them go to the games, but whether a ban will change their racist views, or even behaviour is very much uncertain. I think bans are definitely a good thing. Unless people understand, though, what they are doing and the impact, then it probably won't change. It's one thing to realise "if I shout bad things and make gestures I can't go to the games any more", but another for people to "connect" with the hurt it causes and so want to change their behaviour, and views, rather than just hide it.

[tonyh29]

1 minute ago, HKP90 said:

You seem to be suggesting that society was moving on from a historic legacy of Racism, and that before BLM we were heading toward a state of multiracial harmony. This demonstrably was not true. 

 I think you'd be hard pushed to find many people in the UK aware of BLM in 2013 tbh so I'm not sure I agree with the 2013 benchmark point  , but  I wasn't suggesting racism wasn't happening , just that attitudes for most  were shifting ...  the figures you've posted do show this ..( or just show that its being reported less , which of course is a different thing) 

I've posted elsewhere before on this forum that my children don't really see different  skin colour or religion , there's just kids in their class that don't eat Pork or whatever , that's part of the benchmark for suggesting in a generation or two racism could be " close" to ending 

 

7 minutes ago, HKP90 said:

Secondly, yes it's easy to sneer and say racists are thick/idiots, but it's also easy to sneer at university educated folk, as you have demonstrated, dismissing them as 'brainwashed lefties'. That was not my experience of university, which was neither particularly left wing, and valued critical thinking.

I'm sure more regular viewers would know that's just my posting style , .. its meant to be a  light hearted trope rather than sneering , apologies if it was seen that way  ... its why its often frustrating to engage too seriously with me as I can't help myself  

 

[HKP90]

6 minutes ago, tonyh29 said:

 I think you'd be hard pushed to find many people in the UK aware of BLM in 2013 tbh so I'm not sure I agree with the 2013 benchmark point  , but  I wasn't suggesting racism wasn't happening , just that attitudes for most  were shifting ...  the figures you've posted do show this ..( or just show that its being reported less , which of course is a different thing) 

I've posted elsewhere before on this forum that my children don't really see different  skin colour or religion , there's just kids in their class that don't eat Pork or whatever , that's part of the benchmark for suggesting in a generation or two racism could be " close" to ending 

 

I'm sure more regular viewers would know that's just my posting style , .. its meant to be a  light hearted trope rather than sneering , apologies if it was seen that way  ... its why its often frustrating to engage too seriously with me as I can't help myself  

 

Not a problem, bud. Just engaging in debate. Hopefully I didn't come across as preachy. I don't mean to be. The whole thing just pisses me off. 

I hope you are right, but unfortunately I think there are always folk who, as a majority, will want to shit on a minority, whether it be down to race, or other characteristics. (some) People=shit. 

And you are right about the kids. There is no bigotry in them. My kids have never even mentioned race or disability once, and we were dreading having to have 'the talk'. 

Edit- I didn't think you were sneering anyway, I just took it that you were pointing out that some do. 

Edited May 23, 2023 by HKP90

[Rustibrooks]

4 minutes ago, blandy said:

I guess they remove the racist from the stadium, which is a positive. They also punish the racist by not letting them go to the games, but whether a ban will change their racist views, or even behaviour is very much uncertain. I think bans are definitely a good thing. Unless people understand, though, what they are doing and the impact, then it probably won't change. It's one thing to realise "if I shout bad things and make gestures I can't go to the games any more", but another for people to "connect" with the hurt it causes and so want to change their behaviour, and views, rather than just hide it.

Very true, I would like to think that this could also aid someone changing their views from being racist to anti racist. I’m just not sure though, if they are permanent bans then yeah it would definitely hurt the person. Perfect example is the bloke who was racist towards Darren Moore and Sheff Wed ended up winning their game to get into the play off finals. The bloke is probably sitting at home now regretting everything and probably/hopefully made him have a think about his actions 

[blandy]

1 minute ago, Rustibrooks said:

The bloke is probably sitting at home now regretting everything and probably/hopefully made him have a think about his actions

Undoubtedly. I saw a telly thing with Micah Richards on racism in football, and the one thing that they said worked the best was the racist actually meeting with and talking to the "victim" - that face to face element seemed to genuinely (most of the time) completely shame and re-align the troll's whole attitudes - similar things happen apparently with "normal" trolls. Obviously though, there's a whole ton of reasons why such meetings are not going to be the norm.