Racism Part two

[sharkyvilla]

11 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

I think a lot of this stems from the fact that both America and the UK have had very little revision of our 'glorious' histories. Just like Belgians have a statue of one of the most genocidal maniacs in history, we also seem to be focusing far too much on how great we were in two world wars, and way too little on the fact that we developed internment camps, ravaged India, supported slavery and bombed the shit out of defenseless people since 1940.

Our schools need to start attacking history in a more nuanced way so that we're not all offended when someone says that Churchill wasn't all that great at foreign policy and colonialism is essentially racism put in system.

Revision is normal, the fact that some people have a problem with taking down a statue of Leopold II, Lee, Colston etc but celebrate when countries topples statues of Lenin shows how we've been fenced off from criticism and revision for essentially 70 years.

Compare the numbers of killed between Churchill and Lenin and I think you'll find that neither is a that far off each other. 

Churchill never executed countless thousands of his political enemies or use terror to shore up his dictatorship though.  

[magnkarl]

Just now, sharkyvilla said:

Churchill never executed countless thousands of his political enemies or use terror to shore up his dictatorship though.  

No. He instead bombed all German cities to rubble in 1944 so he didn't have to face said political enemies face to face killing close to 600.000 old, sick and young alike.

May I suggest a read here.

Some great quotes by our boy Winston:

Quote

"I do not admit for instance, that a great wrong has been done to the Red Indians of America or the black people of Australia. I do not admit that a wrong has been done to these people by the fact that a stronger race, a higher-grade race, a more worldly wise race to put it that way, has come in and taken their place."

"I cannot understand this squeamishness about the use of gas," he wrote in a memo during his role as minister for war and air in 1919.

"I am strongly in favour of using poisoned gas against uncivilised tribes," he continued.

Or on Jews: "It may be that, unwittingly, they are inviting persecution - that they have been partly responsible for the antagonism from which they suffer," it said. "There is the feeling that the Jew is an incorrigible alien, that his first loyalty will always be towards his own race."

No revision needed here.

[LondonLax]

9 hours ago, Only2McInallys said:

Yes I agree that statue toppling did achieve something.

Look at Northern Ireland the IRA waged war for 30 years over 6,000 people died and what did they get in 1997 ?

An elected body ruled by Protestants .Ian Paisley was first minister.They could have had that in 1972.All the people that died in that conflict died for nothing.

Violence ultimately doesn’t solve things it makes them more complicated to solve.

What are your thoughts on the Suffragettes? 

[Seat68]

6 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

No. He instead bombed all German cities to rubble in 1944 so he didn't have to face said political enemies face to face killing close to 600.000 old, sick and young alike.

May I suggest a read here.

Some great quotes by our boy Winston:

No revision needed here.

What’s the evidence for that Churchill quote on Jews? 

[Stevo985]

6 minutes ago, LondonLax said:

What are your thoughts on the Suffragettes? 

I was going to say the same thing. When I posted earlier saying that sometimes unlawful activity leads to undeniably good outcomes, the suffragettes are surely one of the prime examples. 
 

What they did was horrific at times, but I don’t think anyone can look back now and say it’s not a good thing that they did it

[Genie]

7 minutes ago, LondonLax said:

What are your thoughts on the Suffragettes? 

Getting women to sign up to end women’s suffrage 

[Keyblade]

1 hour ago, Demitri_C said:

Thats a very good point. South park has to be one of the worst racist qnd offensive programmes out there. 

Wonder how long until American history x gets banned?

Now you're just being silly Dem. Context matters.

[Stevo985]

1 hour ago, Demitri_C said:

Thats a very good point. South park has to be one of the worst racist qnd offensive programmes out there. 

Wonder how long until American history x gets banned?

It won’t 

[PaulC]

I truly hope any people who plan to protest march this weekend take the advice of the police and don’t 

[Follyfoot]

5 minutes ago, PaulC said:

I truly hope any people who plan to protest march this weekend take the advice of the police and don’t 

Unfortunately I think both sets of loons are beyond stepping down, I think it’s going to be horrible

[PaulC]

1 minute ago, Follyfoot said:

Unfortunately I think both sets of loons are beyond stepping down, I think it’s going to be horrible

This is the last thing we need 

[magnkarl]

My local police in South Hampshire definitely needs more training. Groups here are angry because officers turn off their body cams willy nilly, they seem to have a culture of "losing" evidence and footage that incriminates them and are generally known to heavily patrol and perform stops in the areas of Southampton that have higher populations of non-white residents. Youtube is full of interactions with especially their traffic police where officers seem to have a competition in performing unlawful orders and stops\arrests.

A dashcam seems to be the best way to defend yourself, which is really sad.

The police investigations department needs to be independent from the police rather than policemen who couldn't hack it in the field - it should be run by lawyers and not by people who offer permanent professional "get out of jail" cards to their colleagues.

[Vive_La_Villa]

I’m still struggling with the end game here. Protesting is great but what are people protesting for? Surely end racism is way to vague.  Nothing will change if it’s a few marches of shouting end racism and a few statues pulled down.  How do you end racism in this country? 

As I said the protests are great. I applaud and admire people making a stand. But what change do people want? I’m struggling with that part.

This is from a UK perspective only.

[Vive_La_Villa]

1 hour ago, Stevo985 said:

I was going to say the same thing. When I posted earlier saying that sometimes unlawful activity leads to undeniably good outcomes, the suffragettes are surely one of the prime examples. 
 

What they did was horrific at times, but I don’t think anyone can look back now and say it’s not a good thing that they did it

But they wanted the right to vote. They had an ultimate goal and they didn’t stop until they got it.

All examples of unlawful protests in the past knew what change they wanted. The injustice was clear. They demanded it. In many cases they got it.

What the protesters want this time round is far more complex. It can’t be gained by any obvious government policy changes as far as I’m aware. More funding for certain communities perhaps?

I may be completely wrong but it wouldn’t surprise me if after a few weeks of protesting things go back to how they were and not  much changes.  If it’s about changing peoples mindsets then I think that’s  a generational thing. The youth today have never been less racist. That will get passed on to their kids too. 

But in regards to the here and now, If you don’t know where it’s broken, how do you fix it? 

[Stevo985]

3 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

But they wanted the right to vote. They had an ultimate goal and they didn’t stop until they got it.

All examples of unlawful protests in the past knew what change they wanted. The injustice was clear. They demanded it. In many cases they got it.

What the protesters want this time round is far more complex. It can’t be gained by any obvious government policy changes as far as I’m aware. More funding for certain communities perhaps?

I may be completely wrong but it wouldn’t surprise me if after a few weeks of protesting things go back to how they were and not  much changes.  If it’s about changing peoples mindsets then I think that’s  a generational thing. The youth today have never been less racist. That will get passed on to their kids too. 

But in regards to the here and now, If you don’t know where it’s broken, how do you fix it? 

This is much more complicated. It doesn’t negate the point I was making though. 
 

sometimes unlawful activities lead to positive change even if those activities don’t seem right at the time 

[magnkarl]

29 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

I’m still struggling with the end game here. Protesting is great but what are people protesting for? Surely end racism is way to vague.  Nothing will change if it’s a few marches of shouting end racism and a few statues pulled down.  How do you end racism in this country? 

As I said the protests are great. I applaud and admire people making a stand. But what change do people want? I’m struggling with that part.

This is from a UK perspective only.

Here are some starters for you, mentioned plenty of times in this thread.

1. In 2012 (Lammy review) 12% of the population in prisons was from the BAME population, against 3% in the general population. This is higher than in the US if you look at the figures. 48% of all under 18 inmates are BAME in the UK.

2. Stop and search statistics (google these - on my phone) show a bigger skew towards the targeting of BAME young men, especially in areas considered white and rich.

3. More recently statistics show that BAME minorities have been targeted, fined and punished harder than the general population over corona virus laws. 

4. Black people are less likely to carry drugs than white people, yet are disproportionately punished harder and more often than white people for the same offense.   

The list goes on and on and on. The crux of the issue is that there's an apologist attitude from enforcement to white young men. "They're ill, they're mistreated". With young men from minorities there's no room for benefit of the doubt - it's a "get em boys" attitude that's sickening.

Edited June 13, 2020 by magnkarl

[Vive_La_Villa]

1 minute ago, Stevo985 said:

This is much more complicated. It doesn’t negate the point I was making though. 
 

sometimes unlawful activities lead to positive change even if those activities don’t seem right at the time 

Yeh I agree with that point. 

[Vive_La_Villa]

6 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

Here are some starters for you, mentioned plenty of times in this thread.

1. In 2012 (Lammy review) 12% of the population in prisons was from the BAME population, against 3% in the general population. This is higher than in the US if you look at the figures. 48% of all under 18 inmates are BAME in the UK.

2. Stop and search statistics (google these - on my phone) show a bigger skew towards the targeting of BAME young men, especially in areas considered white and rich.

3. More recently statistics show that BAME minorities have been targeted, fined and punished harder than the general population over corona virus laws. 

4. Black people are less likely to carry drugs than white people, yet are disproportionately punished harder and more often than white people for the same offense.  

The list goes on and on and on. 

Thanks for this. So would you say one of areas where changes can be made are the police force and the justice system?   

Edited June 13, 2020 by Vive_La_Villa

[magnkarl]

13 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

Thanks for this. So would you say one of biggest issues where changes can be made are the police force and the justice system? 

In my opinion there needs to be an independent body that deals with complaints against government/public officials of all kinds. Right now the police, the courts etc all do their own regulating, which means that complaints are dismissed way too easily due to professional courtesy. Of course the police won't admit to being racist in an arrest or stop\search as it would mean that they're agreeing to the system being morally broken.

We could also start by taking public funds from i.e Eton, Oxford, Cambridge and funneling it to programmes meant to educate minority youth. A very small % of mainly rich, white young men and women get a disproportionate large amount of public funding because a lot of the white geezers in office went to these schools. 

Edited June 13, 2020 by magnkarl

[Only2McInallys]

22 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

Here are some starters for you, mentioned plenty of times in this thread.

1. In 2012 (Lammy review) 12% of the population in prisons was from the BAME population, against 3% in the general population. This is higher than in the US if you look at the figures. 48% of all under 18 inmates are BAME in the UK.

2. Stop and search statistics (google these - on my phone) show a bigger skew towards the targeting of BAME young men, especially in areas considered white and rich.

3. More recently statistics show that BAME minorities have been targeted, fined and punished harder than the general population over corona virus laws. 

4. Black people are less likely to carry drugs than white people, yet are disproportionately punished harder and more often than white people for the same offense.  

The list goes on and on and on. 

To me the justice system and how the police conduct themselves is where a lot of the resentment that black people feel emanates from.

The problem is that it’s not the laws that are wrong it how they are interpreted and acted upon.

How you change people with power with racist views is more difficult than changing laws.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 13, 2020 by Only2McInallys