Dean Smith

[hippo]

Just now, Vive_La_Villa said:

He had no choice. They were both ****! 

Were they ? I didn't notice them looking notably worse than any others after 68 minutes than any of others in what had been quite a low key Derby. Apart from one Traroe run Wolves hadn't really been pressing us..

How are you measuring ***** -? and don't say analytics (unless you have some that prove a player can play for 68 minutes but not 90).

 

[foreveryoung]

Shattered. A pro footballer shattered after 60 minutes. I wanna see our players play with a bit of passion, I wouldn't mind but they hardly grafted in that first half. Unless they are injured, they should want to play on for 90 minutes, an the manager will make the decision to take them off, not the player. They wouldn't be asking to come of  if it was Pep or Tuchal, cause you'd be having a break the next game too.

They certainly couldn't have had much of a rollocking at half time if they are asking to come off after 15 minutes more?

[hippo]

1 minute ago, foreveryoung said:

Shattered. A pro footballer shattered after 60 minutes. I wanna see our players play with a bit of passion, I wouldn't mind but they hardly grafted in that first half. Unless they are injured, they should want to play on for 90 minutes, an the manager will make the decision to take them off, not the player. They wouldn't be asking to come of  if it was Pep or Tuchal, cause you'd be having a break the next game too.

They certainly couldn't have had much of a rollocking at half time if they are asking to come off after 15 minutes more?

Of course. I can't believe it needs to be stated.

He messed up on those subs. That doesn't make him a bad coach. But saying he had "no choice" to take those players off is really overstating it. What on earth was going to happen if he didn't take those players off ?.

It was a choice he made himself. He wasn't backed into a corner to make it.

 

[Vive_La_Villa]

In my day players would play 5 times a week and have 10 pints after every game. Don’t make them like they used to. 
 

Makes subs gets criticised; doesn’t make subs gets criticised.  Conversations been done to death over the last 2 weeks so let’s leave it there.  I’m bored. 
 

 

[hippo]

1 minute ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

In my day players would play 5 times a week and have 10 pints after every game. Don’t make them like they used to. 
 

Makes subs gets criticised; doesn’t make subs gets criticised.  Conversations been done to death over the last 2 weeks so let’s leave it there.  I’m bored. 
 

 

Getting criticism is a given for a football head coach.

The point you were stating. Was that he had no choice to sub those players. When he obviously did.

Not sure about the 5x week + drinking 10 pts. ?

Football isn't an endurance sport. A typical player will run under 10k in a match.

[Indigo]

1 hour ago, foreveryoung said:

Shattered. A pro footballer shattered after 60 minutes. I wanna see our players play with a bit of passion, I wouldn't mind but they hardly grafted in that first half. Unless they are injured, they should want to play on for 90 minutes, an the manager will make the decision to take them off, not the player. They wouldn't be asking to come of  if it was Pep or Tuchal, cause you'd be having a break the next game too.

They certainly couldn't have had much of a rollocking at half time if they are asking to come off after 15 minutes more?

In the last month both Pep and Tuchel have literally cited fatigue and tiredness as being reasons for lacklustre performances from both individuals as well as the team overall, and on having to make certain substations. Do. Me. A. Favour.

Edited October 29, 2021 by Indigo

[hippo]

1 minute ago, Indigo said:

In the last month both Pep and Tuchel have literally cited fatigue and tiredness as being reasons for lacklustre performances from both individuals as well as the team overall, and on having to make certain substations. Do. Me. A. Favour.

Yes. But they can make such a change as the replacements they have on the bench are of an equal quality. Where is Nakamba for Luiz down grades the 11 on the pitch.

So the choice for DS is a bit more complex. Does he bring on a fresher lower quality player - or stay with the better player.

For me in the wolves match - we were well on top. It hadn't been a particularly hard game. In any case what does resting a player for 20 minutes really gain you in such circumstances.

[foreveryoung]

9 minutes ago, Indigo said:

In the last month both Pep and Tuchel have literally cited fatigue and tiredness as being reasons for lacklustre performances from both individuals as well as the team overall, and on having to make certain substations. Do. Me. A. Favour.

We hardly play with man City's intensity. It's bull*** anyway. Tuchel was saying that after 3 games in. How can a elite athlete be tired after 90 minutes of football a week.

I'm not blaming anyone, just isn't a good look when your players are asking to come off after 65 minutes. Haven't actually seen any Man City or Chelsea players asking to be subbed, unless injured.

Just worrying when your 100k a week player cannot do 90 minutes of football once or even twice a week, as I said they hardly grafted.

(Tin hat on) They wanna take a leave out of Bielsa's book, try playing with that intensity every week!

Edited October 29, 2021 by foreveryoung

[Vive_La_Villa]

1 hour ago, hippo said:

Getting criticism is a given for a football head coach.

The point you were stating. Was that he had no choice to sub those players. When he obviously did.

Not sure about the 5x week + drinking 10 pts. ?

Football isn't an endurance sport. A typical player will run under 10k in a match.

Yes but it by the same people regardless of what he does.   I remember him getting it bad when we won games like the 3-0 against Arsenal for not taking anyone off when the game was apparently won. Now the same people are criticising him for making changes when he shouldn’t have. Both Ramsey and Nakamba should be capable of coming on and doing a job for 20 minutes. If they can’t then they shouldn’t be in the squad. 
 

 

Edited October 29, 2021 by Vive_La_Villa

[tom_avfc]

2 minutes ago, hippo said:

Yes. But they can make such a change as the replacements they have on the bench are of an equal quality. Where is Nakamba for Luiz down grades the 11 on the pitch.

So the choice for DS is a bit more complex. Does he bring on a fresher lower quality player - or stay with the better player.

For me in the wolves match - we were well on top. It hadn't been a particularly hard game. In any case what does resting a player for 20 minutes really gain you in such circumstances.

I guess you run the risk of picking up injuries by playing players into the ground. If bringing Nakamba on for 20 minutes means Douglas Luiz doesn’t pick up an injury that puts him out for weeks/ months then it may be better in the long run.

I’m happy to trust the sports scientists and the manager with all the information available to them rather than some bloke on a forum who thinks everybody should be able to play 90 minutes every game to be honest.

[Vive_La_Villa]

4 minutes ago, foreveryoung said:

My issue was, players asking to be subbed. Not Smith making a sub.

We lost that game because the subs looked like they had no idea what they should be doing out there.

It ain’t great but at least he was honest. Pointless him trying to carry on if his ****. I haven’t been impressed with him at all though tbh. 

[Vive_La_Villa]

9 minutes ago, hippo said:

Wow ! I know we have some good tech and people on our medical staff. But I'd be mighty impressed if they can advise that. 

Be more likely to be "do you feel fit enough to play" 

Ok that aside surely you agree that Luiz for Nakamba should not mean throwing away 2 goals leads with 10 minutes to go. If it does then we’ve got bigger issues than Smith as the manager. 

[hippo]

3 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

Ok that aside surely you agree that Luiz for Nakamba should not mean throwing away 2 goals leads with 10 minutes to go. If it does then we’ve got bigger issues than Smith as the manager. 

Well I think Luiz this season has played pretty well to be honest. Nakamba by contrast has been poor and seems to have regressed to be honest.

So yes I think that substitution had a major impact on the game.

Right now I don't personally have an issue with DS as manager. I think he needs to get back to basics and start putting his best 11 on the pitch. We can't rotate like city and chelski. Let's have a real good crack at beating west ham - and focus on next game after that..not before. I can't help thinking we are overthinking things at the moment.

[Keyblade]

4 hours ago, Made In Aston said:

He didn't quite say that, but the general gist was that it wasn't the players who collapsed but a couple of 'weird' goals. This week he said that we threw the game away, which suggests it was in our control to win our lose.

I think it's just a figure of speech meant to convey that we lost the game in the dying minutes and not that we literally threw the game. He wasn't even asked about the Wolves game, he just mentioned it in passing.

[hippo]

8 hours ago, dont_do_it_doug. said:

It's not 1992. They can absolutely tell you where a player should be at physically and what kind of load they can handle. That can obviously change during the course of a game, but to think they are doing this on vibes alone is outdated. 

Ok if you know the above tell me what metrics they are using. ?

You might want to scroll up to the paper I linked about measuring fatigue in footballers. 

Be very interested to hear what stats they used to decide Luiz could only play for 68 minutes.

The only time fitness stats are used is pre season.ask any pro footballer if you don't believe me.

[weedman]

Just to confirm having read through the topic, the main issue with Smith now is that he makes too many subs, too early, and "if a player can play for 60 minutes they can play for 90", so should never be subbed unless we are losing. 

Its been an interesting read, I always assumed that fatigue got worse the longer you played, that football is an endurance sport because most of the "only 10k" you run is in high intensity or sprints and not making enough "proactive" subs was the main thing Smith has been criticised for the last few years 

[blandy]

9 minutes ago, hippo said:

The only time fitness stats are used is pre season.ask any pro footballer if you don't believe me.

Nonsense. They are used and monitored daily, throughout the season as well.  You know those funny vests that they wear? 

Quote

Each vest is equipped with a small device that localizes each player though a Global Positioning System (GPS). Not only does the equipment monitor the heart rate of the player it also records: the distance a player has run, the intensity of the run, the speed, the amount of sprints and acceleration and also the amount of tackles a player makes in a game. 

It means that players can focus on specific areas of their games and look into the things that they are doing well and not so well. Not only can it do this but it can also calculate if a player is at more or less risk of injury in both training sessions and matches.

Due to its amazing features, big clubs like Chelsea or Real Madrid have been using it for years. It has meant that managers such as Jose Mourinho have had better data to know when to rotate players to avoid injuries. 

https://www.besoccer.com/new/why-do-footballers-wear-vests-under-their-tops

so Deano and the staff have and use that data exactly as has been posted

[weedman]

5 minutes ago, hippo said:

Ok if you know the above tell me what metrics they are using. ?

You might want to scroll up to the paper I linked about measuring fatigue in footballers. 

Be very interested to hear what stats they used to decide Luiz could only play for 68 minutes.

The only time fitness stats are used is pre season.ask any pro footballer if you don't believe me.

Someone should tell the club, because they are paying a company a ton of money to make the players wear those monitors in every game, what a rip off! 

Hell, 5 years ago when I played football addidas made a boot that had a tracker in it that recorded your top speed, distance covered, number of sprints, and a ton of other metrics, and that was £100 from sports direct, if you think Premier League football teams worth hundreds of millions are still going by the "how fit do you feel" approach to deciding player fitness you are living in the past 

[hippo]

47 minutes ago, weedman said:

Just to confirm having read through the topic, the main issue with Smith now is that he makes too many subs, too early, and "if a player can play for 60 minutes they can play for 90", so should never be subbed unless we are losing. 

Its been an interesting read, I always assumed that fatigue got worse the longer you played, that football is an endurance sport because most of the "only 10k" you run is in high intensity or sprints and not making enough "proactive" subs was the main thing Smith has been criticised for the last few years 

Marathon running or tour de France cyclists are endurance sports. Where athletes push themselves to brink of exhaustion. 

Some of these train at altitude and V02 max is frequently measured.

Football is different. Metrics on distance/hr won't for example tell you about passing accuracy, tackling accuracy, jumping for headers., Decision making. Players make short explosive sprints in which HR rises.

Core temp. ? Interesting one. In the first round a covid Jabs the question was asked would you fail the temperature test if you come straight from a workout. The answer was no. Excercise should not raise your core body temperature. Surprising when you think how hot and sweaty we get running/cycling/gym etc.

If you read the link I posted last night. A study was done in Scandinavia where they attempted to measure fatigue effect on performance over 3 games in 8 days. The actual results showed the players performing best in match 3 !

Sure the medical profession knows a lot about health. But there are still many cases where doctors just plain don't know.

The general public always think docs/medics have all the answers - very often they don't.

 

Edited October 30, 2021 by hippo

[hippo]

13 minutes ago, weedman said:

Someone should tell the club, because they are paying a company a ton of money to make the players wear those monitors in every game, what a rip off! 

Hell, 5 years ago when I played football addidas made a boot that had a tracker in it that recorded your top speed, distance covered, number of sprints, and a ton of other metrics, and that was £100 from sports direct, if you think Premier League football teams worth hundreds of millions are still going by the "how fit do you feel" approach to deciding player fitness you are living in the past 

I'm not saying they don't have stats. I have made reference to distance covered HR etc.

Wot I am saying those stats aren't precise enough to say player X needs to come off.

For example if a player is having a blinder. But the stats show he has covered more distance than normal - would you sub him on stats alone.