Dean Smith

[useless]

Besides if it's a proven manager that people crave, one that will show that we mean business, then I'm not sure Bielsa is the answer, he has a big reputation, but there's probably a reason he's at Leeds, a team that had been a midtable championship club at best for the ten or so years before he joined them, when you look at his record I don't think it's actually that good, at Lille they were second from bottom when he left, at Lazio he was only there for a few days, did better with Marseille finishing fourth, but again was there for less than a year before leaving them one game into a new season, at Athletic Bilbao he's credited for transforming them but whilst he was there they finished eleventh and thirteenth, the season after he left they did much better and finished fourth, I don't think he's won much in the way of domestic trophies either.

Edited May 23, 2020 by useless

[villalad21]

29 minutes ago, useless said:

Besides if it's a proven manager that people crave, one that will show that we mean business, then I'm not sure Bielsa is the answer, he has a big reputation, but there's probably a reason he's at Leeds, a team that had been a midtable championship club at best for the ten or so years before he joined them, when you look at his record I don't think it's actually that good, at Lille they were second from bottom when he left, at Lazio he was only there for a few days, did better with Marseille finishing fourth, but again was there for less than a year before leaving them one game into a new season, at Athletic Bilbao he's credited for transforming them but whilst he was there they finished eleventh and thirteenth, the season after he left they did much better and finished fourth, I don't think he's won much in the way of domestic trophies either.

"A team that has been a mid table club for 10 years."

And last season he nearly took them to a play off final and now they are top of the league. Surely he's done something right?

[nick76]

56 minutes ago, useless said:

Besides if it's a proven manager that people crave, one that will show that we mean business, then I'm not sure Bielsa is the answer, he has a big reputation, but there's probably a reason he's at Leeds, a team that had been a midtable championship club at best for the ten or so years before he joined them, when you look at his record I don't think it's actually that good, at Lille they were second from bottom when he left, at Lazio he was only there for a few days, did better with Marseille finishing fourth, but again was there for less than a year before leaving them one game into a new season, at Athletic Bilbao he's credited for transforming them but whilst he was there they finished eleventh and thirteenth, the season after he left they did much better and finished fourth, I don't think he's won much in the way of domestic trophies either.

I agree, Bielsa doesn’t show we mean business it’s arguably just a sideways move on Smith....arguments for and against being slightly worse or better than Smith but not material enough to show we mean business highlighted by you post on his history.

[nick76]

28 minutes ago, villalad21 said:

"A team that has been a mid table club for 10 years."

And last season he nearly took them to a play off final and now they are top of the league. Surely he's done something right?

but Smith nearly won the League Cup final this season by that logic.

[villalad21]

4 minutes ago, nick76 said:

but Smith nearly won the League Cup final this season by that logic.

That isn't remotely the same thing. The cup is 4-5 games.

He's turned them from being mid table to a top side in the Championship. He's improved them since arriving.

[nick76]

Just now, villalad21 said:

That isn't remotely the same thing. The cup is 4-5 games.

He's turned them from being mid table to a top side in the Championship. He's improved them since arriving.

1) You only need to be 6th to be in the playoffs.  That should easily possible for a club of Leeds size.

2) Then playoffs was a cup style competition that a Leeds couldn’t reach the final

3) Smith not only reached the final, not only beat Leeds opponents but also won the final and got promoted.

4) Cup is only 4-5 games, you mean the cup we haven’t won for 24 years and dominated by the big clubs.

5) We beat Leicester over two legs to get there

6) Smith got a comparable Villa team to Leeds promoted where Bielsa didn’t 

7) Smith still got us to a League Cup final, Bielsa didn’t get Leeds to the same Cup final

8) As of yet, Bielsa still hasn’t got Leeds promoted.

[useless]

I'm not saying he's a bad manager full stop... But If Smth was to leave and the owners wanted to show how ambitous they were then I'm not sure how appointng someone that's improved a midtable championship club would show that ambition, Neil Warnock did a better job in the championship with Cardiff, and I'm sure there are plenty of other examples.

[nick76]

4 minutes ago, useless said:

I'm not saying he's a bad manager full stop... But If Smth was to leave and the owners wanted to show how ambitous they were then I'm not sure how appointng someone that's improved a midtable championship club would show that ambition, Neil Warnock did a better job in the championship with Cardiff, and I'm sure there are plenty of other examples.

Me too, I like Bielsa but just swapping out Smith for Bielsa is like swapping out my silver car for the same year and model in blue but has cost me a fortune in doing so.

[villalad21]

37 minutes ago, nick76 said:

1) You only need to be 6th to be in the playoffs.  That should easily possible for a club of Leeds size.

2) Then playoffs was a cup style competition that a Leeds couldn’t reach the final

3) Smith not only reached the final, not only beat Leeds opponents but also won the final and got promoted.

4) Cup is only 4-5 games, you mean the cup we haven’t won for 24 years and dominated by the big clubs.

5) We beat Leicester over two legs to get there

6) Smith got a comparable Villa team to Leeds promoted where Bielsa didn’t 

7) Smith still got us to a League Cup final, Bielsa didn’t get Leeds to the same Cup final

As of yet, Bielsa still hasn’t got Leeds promoted.

If we get relegated. Leeds get promoted and he finishes mid table with them would you change your opinion?

[M_Afro]

I think Bielsa is an upgrade on Smith but to be honest it would hardly be a real show of intent! We have rarely shown ambition in managerial appointments in my entire time of supporting. The last real ambitious appointment was Houllier. Before that you have to go all the way back to Atkinson in my view.

It is no surprise that we keep on struggling when we do not get the most important appointment right. Smith will continue to fail at Villa until he is sacked. He will then go on to achieve nothing of real note in his career. It may hurt to hear that but I really believe it to be true. We need to move on fast and make an appointment of real quality.

[nick76]

7 minutes ago, villalad21 said:

If we get relegated. Leeds get promoted and he finishes mid table with them would you change your opinion?

No because as per my comment above about swapping cars, it’s just like for like.

Plus, your comments are based on hypothetical that he does something he hasnt done yet.  Would you change your mind about Smith if he avoids relegation this season and gets a European place next season?

If Leeds get promoted, which is still an if but likely.  They could then react many ways just like Sheff U, Villa and Norwich.

What if we avoid relegation, Leeds get promoted and we finish significantly above them or the same as them or just below them.  All we know is what has happened, Smith has got promotion in his first season, has got us to a major cup final and can still avoid relegation which was the target for this season.  Bielsa in his first season failed in his promotion attempt in his first season, hasn’t been to a major cup final with Leeds but looks like he has a great chance of promotion this season.  

All we can judge on is what they have done so far not hypothetical futures.

[VillaChris]

It was really interesting reading the Poch comments today. I know it simply screams Newcastle but before reading I thought he'd just dismiss any offer they'd make and wait for an underachieving european club e.g. one of the Milan clubs. Seems in his sabatical there isn't a huge amount of top european clubs beating down his door so looks like he's accepted he's going to have to do a similar type job to what he did at Spurs and lift an underachieving club into the top 4 on a consistant basis. And try to win a trophy this time.

I think it's worth at least getting in touch with him this summer and see where the land lies (if we stay up). He said he wanted to take over club with big passionate support base. We qualify for that as much as Newcastle and while we obviously wouldn't spend as much as them it's worth reminding we did spend nearly 150m last summer.

Pochettino would be one of the best managerial appointments we've made in decades, a real sit up and take notice to rest of football world and of course way he developed under 23 players like Dele Ali and Ben Davies fits with what we're trying to do here.

I'm not saying I'd expect him to come but given the board are going on about challenging for europe in a few seasons to me a manager who's consistantly finished in those positions last five years is a pretty good place to start.

Edited May 23, 2020 by VillaChris

[VillaChris]

14 minutes ago, M_Afro said:

I think Bielsa is an upgrade on Smith but to be honest it would hardly be a real show of intent! We have rarely shown ambition in managerial appointments in my entire time of supporting. The last real ambitious appointment was Houllier. Before that you have to go all the way back to Atkinson in my view.

It is no surprise that we keep on struggling when we do not get the most important appointment right. Smith will continue to fail at Villa until he is sacked. He will then go on to achieve nothing of real note in his career. It may hurt to hear that but I really believe it to be true. We need to move on fast and make an appointment of real quality.

Houllier was well past his best, it was like us signing a Drinkwater or Pires. I wasn't impressed with it considering we'd just finished 6th three times in a row. Pretty poor considering what other teams who finished around us were appointing at the time.

In fairness O'Neill was a massive coup at the time, remember the crowd that came to VP when he was announced? And I'd say O'Leary aswell given he was finishing high up at Leeds and playing decent football although that didn't work out well.

[TRO]

32 minutes ago, nick76 said:

No because as per my comment above about swapping cars, it’s just like for like.

Plus, your comments are based on hypothetical that he does something he hasnt done yet.  Would you change your mind about Smith if he avoids relegation this season and gets a European place next season?

If Leeds get promoted, which is still an if but likely.  They could then react many ways just like Sheff U, Villa and Norwich.

What if we avoid relegation, Leeds get promoted and we finish significantly above them or the same as them or just below them.  All we know is what has happened, Smith has got promotion in his first season, has got us to a major cup final and can still avoid relegation which was the target for this season.  Bielsa in his first season failed in his promotion attempt in his first season, hasn’t been to a major cup final with Leeds but looks like he has a great chance of promotion this season.  

All we can judge on is what they have done so far not hypothetical futures.

Absolutely right.

Dean has been a mixed bag for me, which is kinda not surprising in his first Prem Season....He clearly knows something is wrong by breaking tradition and revisiting all this seasons games, He also feels a need to interview all the players with his thoughts something else he says he doesn't normally do.

56 goals against warrants this and I am pleased he is focusing his attention on it.....With a significant improvement and 10 games left, it is doable.

I really hope the chap can turn this around.

[VillaChris]

He's done marginally worse than someone like Graham Potter, I'd rank those two pretty similar at the moment in their managerial careers. Potter was being lauded at start of season for football Brighton were playing but it's a long season and now Brighton can't score and reverted to more of the turgid stuff they were playing under Chris Hughton last season.

He also did a similar job at Swansea to what DS did at Brentford.

Wilder has massively overachieved. It would be interesting to see if he could replicate his style at another premier league club but he had good success at Northampton and Oxford before, albeit at lower levels.

One of them will probably manage England in next 10-15 years so interesting how they all develop. Gareth Southgate was relegating Boro in 2009 and then he manages England to world cup SF less than a decade later.

[nick76]

5 minutes ago, TRO said:

Absolutely right.

Dean has been a mixed bag for me, which is kinda not surprising in his first Prem Season....He clearly knows something is wrong by breaking tradition and revisiting all this seasons games, He also feels a need to interview all the players with his thoughts something else he says he doesn't normally do.

56 goals against warrants this and I am pleased he is focusing his attention on it.....With a significant improvement and 10 games left, it is doable.

I really hope the chap can turn this around.

I agree.  

I’m sick of constantly changing managers, it’s proven that keep changing manager long term doesn’t lead to improvement of the club.  I do concede that staying with a bad manager is also not a good idea.  

I would like to build with a manager over a longer duration and happy to have the thick with the smooth as long as there is a long term plan.  I hope that’s with Dean, yes he going through a bad patch at the moment but yeah I hope he can turn it around and we can grow next season with him.

[useless]

We're in a bit of a catch 22 situation wth all this talk of a big name manager, if we stay up then Smith is unlikely to get the sack, he might lose his job if we're relegated, but an ambitous appointment then would have to be ambitous by championship standards.

[villalad21]

It might be hypotheticals but Leeds are defensively sound. Norwich and us were not last season, Sheffield United were. Look where the respective clubs are on the table.

Dean chatting with the players is all well and good but will that fix our defensive woes? No, that has to happen on the training pitch. But let's see where we are when the season kicks off.

[M_Afro]

52 minutes ago, VillaChris said:

Houllier was well past his best, it was like us signing a Drinkwater or Pires. I wasn't impressed with it considering we'd just finished 6th three times in a row. Pretty poor considering what other teams who finished around us were appointing at the time.

In fairness O'Neill was a massive coup at the time, remember the crowd that came to VP when he was announced? And I'd say O'Leary aswell given he was finishing high up at Leeds and playing decent football although that didn't work out well.

I don’t think Houlier was past his best. Sadly his health failed him but you could not have predicted that. 
I actually forgot about MON!!! Agree that he was an ambitious appointment at the time. O’Leary was a risk in my view and not a real show of ambition. 

[VillaChris]

1 minute ago, M_Afro said:

I don’t think Houlier was past his best. Sadly his health failed him but you could not have predicted that. 
I actually forgot about MON!!! Agree that he was an ambitious appointment at the time. O’Leary was a risk in my view and not a real show of ambition. 

He was, he left Lyon in May 2007 and didn't manage a club side until he took over us three and a half years later. I'd say someone out of the game that long isn't a manager in his prime any longer.

Indeed when we appointed him he was in some sort of consultancy role at French FA so we had to keep McDonald in caretaker charge for two more games.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2010/sep/15/gerard-houllier-aston-villa-bolton

Quote

Aston Villa have confirmed that Gérard Houllier will officially take over as the club's manager after Saturday's Premier League match against Bolton. Houllier was hired by Villa last Wednesday on a three-year deal, but was still under contract as the French Football Federation's technical director and had not agreed to a departure date