Kingman Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 Just now, nick76 said: Nope Yes 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomaszk Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 3 hours ago, DCJonah said: I get we all want to win games and they can be incredibly frustrating. But also what's the panic over when we lose? We aren't going down and we don't need to qualify for Europe. That would just be an incredible bonus. Teams like Everton, spurs and arsenal should be panicking about that. Chelsea should be worried about not breaking the top 4. Our season is comfortable, regardless of games like last night. And its comfortable because over these 20 games, Dean Smith and the squad have done a fantastic job. If we finish 8th or 13th whats the big difference? It doesn't largely make a difference no. I have no interest in Europa League football. Outside of miraculously getting top 4, ideal season for me would been 6th and no Europa League. I do think it's important for our summer transfers though. Not sure if the owners will keep spending but if we're planning to then 6th and right in the mix will open up more options to us than finishing 13th. Plus that might hold off the Grealish stories. I think it'll be a summer long saga if we flop the second half of season. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 (edited) 2 hours ago, cb_82 said: The games where we have been hammered this year in particular thinking of West Ham, Leeds and Southampton first half is where teams have pressed us and force us into errors. West Ham played really well last night and just pushed and pushed every time we had the ball at the back and we had no way of playing through. Dean Smith has been brilliant for Villa but there is something in the fact we haven't come from behind to win this seaon, that for me is around being able to change games in game and last night was a prime example. The one thing that stood out as soon as the team was announced was that Fredricks was starting to double up on Grealish - To me that means you start the game with Jack on the right and El Ghazi on the left and you play them at their own game straight away and give them something to think about. Then when we couldn't go through the press why didn't we try to go over and round it and stick Davis on as another forward to hold and play off - Again may not have worked but we seemed to just keep trying the same thing over and over to the point i called each of the subs 2 minutes before they were made as you just knew what was coming. Still plenty of positives but i think we need to show as we did v saints that we can bounce back and we are learning UTV good observations. but,Dawson and Ogbonna, would have nullified Keinan, but your thoughts are right, change it if its not working....Jack should have just left them 2 to it, and moved. We are sitting on 32 points, so we know we do somethings right.....Its just games like last night we need to address. I hope in the summer, we can reflect on nights like this. Edited February 4, 2021 by TRO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom_avfc Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 49 minutes ago, TRO said: Tom, sorry, maybe I am confusing 2 issues....by talking about 2 things at the same time.....I agree with you. My frustration, personally is.....I have been saying for some time, we need a soucek,McTominay, Ndidi, type of player in our squad......I can't comment on Sanson as I have not seen him play enough, albeit, he does say he is a " Warrior" which is what I want to see....don't get me wrong, its just one issue, we have many, who could be in my view, more combative, when needed. Yeah I think its a position we don't really have. A better version of Nakamba in defensive midfield would allow us to use Douglas Luiz slightly further forward in rotation with McGinn and Sanson and these are the sort of additions which we can make to push on our squad as a whole. I think its important to recognise that we've made massive strides over the last year or two and are now in a position where we can go out and spend big money on one or two key positions which will help to take us on to the next level rather than spreading our money around a number of acquisitions. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GingerCollins29 Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 I'm getting a bit sick of reading things like "everyone stop moaning, yeh we lost, but compare where we are now to last season". We've moved on from last season. We're nor relegation fodder anymore. Burnley, leeds and est ham were pathetic performances which should have been better. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 1 hour ago, tom_avfc said: Fair points on the main however there's more than one way to change the shape of a team that is losing the midfield. Shakespeare clearly seemed to suggest a 4-4-2 which I'd imagine would lead to a far more direct approach. Smith preferred bringing the extra midfielder on in Sanson to try and win the midfield a bit more. Given that once Sanson came on we scored and looked like potentially getting back into the game before Emi chucked one in uncharacteristically I'm not sure the subs and system changes we made were particularly bad. Smith saying our defending was poor was not particularly aimed at the defenders in my view either. Defending as you say is the responsibility of the team and I'd suggest that the defence actually performed reasonably well and were let down by those in front of them for the goals. The lack of tracking back by midfielders for the first goal and how open we were for goals 2 and 3 (along with poor goalkeeping for both) was what led to us losing the game for me. but Tom.....If you are not doing the basics like winning the ball, chasing runners, getting a challenge in.....changing formations do not always compensate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCJonah Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 1 minute ago, Tomaszk said: It doesn't largely make a difference no. I have no interest in Europa League football. Outside of miraculously getting top 4, ideal season for me would been 6th and no Europa League. I do think it's important for our summer transfers though. Not sure if the owners will keep spending but if we're planning to then 6th and right in the mix will open up more options to us than finishing 13th. Plus that might hold off the Grealish stories. I think it'll be a summer long saga if we flop the second half of season. Yeah I'm not sure about that. I don't think our owners really expected a European fight this season. I don't get the impression they're going to lose interest in spending and building. Realistically this season was all about progress from the last. It might stop Jack going, but again, I'm sure he didn't sign a new 5 year contract with the idea that we'd be getting into Europe. And unfortunately, the way he's playing, I'm not sure there is much we could do if the top clubs in world football come in for him. Don't get me wrong, its better to finish as high up as possible, but I don't see it having a major impact on us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom_avfc Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 6 minutes ago, Tomaszk said: It doesn't largely make a difference no. I have no interest in Europa League football. Outside of miraculously getting top 4, ideal season for me would been 6th and no Europa League. I do think it's important for our summer transfers though. Not sure if the owners will keep spending but if we're planning to then 6th and right in the mix will open up more options to us than finishing 13th. Plus that might hold off the Grealish stories. I think it'll be a summer long saga if we flop the second half of season. I think its important for our Summer transfers and Grealish but its not the be all and end all. if we finish in midtable we will still be able to attract a better quality of player than we could having finished 17th staying up on the last day of the season the year before. Grealish said himself this week that he expected us to improve up to around 12th or 13th in the league this season and that the start that we made was an unexpected bonus. As long as we continue to progress and can make more signings to bolster the squad then we just take it step by step. The fact that Grealish has been happy to stay while we're progressing and signed a long time contract suggests that we can progress with him rather than lose him along the way. With all the ambition in the world its unlikely to progress from 17th to top 6 in the table in one season. As long as we can show that we're ambitious and continue to improve the squad then we'll be OK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 (edited) 8 minutes ago, GingerCollins29 said: I'm getting a bit sick of reading things like "everyone stop moaning, yeh we lost, but compare where we are now to last season". We've moved on from last season. We're nor relegation fodder anymore. Burnley, leeds and est ham were pathetic performances which should have been better. its like climbing up a rock face and constantly patting yourself on the back, for how far you have come......you are more likely to fall off, rather than get to the summit. the Last few seasons was coming out of the Dark times, never to be repeated.....we are a Premiership side now, and we should think and moan like one. Edited February 4, 2021 by TRO 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest av1 Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 I'd like to see a top class winger come in before considering moving Grealish centrally. The drop off in quality when El Ghazi or Trez play is quite substantial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCJonah Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 1 minute ago, TRO said: its like climbing up a rock face and constantly patting yourself on the back, for how far you have come......you are more likely to fall off, rather than get to the summit. Last season was coming out of the Dark times, never to be repeated.....we are a Premiership side now, and we should think and moan like one. Agreed. But some are moaning like we are a top 4 side. 1 pt of Chelsea and spurs. A head of arsenal. Moaning at every blip isn't some productive way to progress. No one is happy with playing poorly but the big picture is clear. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KenjiOgiwara Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 3 minutes ago, Kingman said: Yes Nah. Jack is by far best in a free role from the left. People are observing the problem correctly, but adressing it wrong. Baby and the bathwater is your expressiom? It doesn't mean we can't switch it up and move him into the middle or right if the team benefits, but adressing the weaknesses last night isn't done by removing a world class player from his best position. We have lots of options for rotations and I’ve grown to like Traore, which I have to admit I got wrong. He's still weak defensively, but our play looks more fluid with him.Traore is also an option in the middle for me, which removes his flaw on the right wing i.e. only having one functional foot. We are having a superb season, but I removing Grealish from the left would be nuts imo. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick76 Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 17 minutes ago, Kingman said: Yes 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nick76 Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 3 minutes ago, KenjiOgiwara said: Nah. Jack is by far best in a free role from the left. People are observing the problem correctly, but adressing it wrong. Baby and the bathwater is your expressiom? It doesn't mean we can't switch it up and move him into the middle or right if the team benefits, but adressing the weaknesses last night isn't done by removing a world class player from his best position. We have lots of options for rotations and I’ve grown to like Traore, which I have to admit I got wrong. He's still weak defensively, but our play looks more fluid with him.Traore is also an option in the middle for me, which removes his flaw on the right wing i.e. only having one functional foot. We are having a superb season, but I removing Grealish from the left would be nuts imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCJonah Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 (edited) 12 minutes ago, GingerCollins29 said: I'm getting a bit sick of reading things like "everyone stop moaning, yeh we lost, but compare where we are now to last season". We've moved on from last season. We're nor relegation fodder anymore. Burnley, leeds and est ham were pathetic performances which should have been better. What do you expect though? Never play poorly? Liverpool drew with West brom and lost to Brighton. Spurs have played poorly and dropped points. Leicester lost to Leeds, Man U lost to sheff u. Of course we're going to have games where we play bad. Out of 20 games, how many have really been bad? 3 or 4, at a push 4 and a half? I mean if that's something you want to moan about what are your expectations? Edited February 4, 2021 by DCJonah 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 (edited) 10 minutes ago, KenjiOgiwara said: Nah. Jack is by far best in a free role from the left. People are observing the problem correctly, but adressing it wrong. Baby and the bathwater is your expressiom? It doesn't mean we can't switch it up and move him into the middle or right if the team benefits, but adressing the weaknesses last night isn't done by removing a world class player from his best position. We have lots of options for rotations and I’ve grown to like Traore, which I have to admit I got wrong. He's still weak defensively, but our play looks more fluid with him.Traore is also an option in the middle for me, which removes his flaw on the right wing i.e. only having one functional foot. We are having a superb season, but I removing Grealish from the left would be nuts imo. I get frustrated hearing about wingers having defensive flaws.....was George Best renowned for his defensive qualities or tracking back. what would be nifty, is those players in the team who's first job is to defend, is to do exactly that.....wingers job is to roast their defence. I didn't see Lingard involved in much defending.....He left it to the experts. Edited February 4, 2021 by TRO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Follyfoot Posted February 4, 2021 VT Supporter Share Posted February 4, 2021 22 minutes ago, Kingman said: Yes maybe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laughable Chimp Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 (edited) 26 minutes ago, Zatman said: Luiz actually has 5 yellow cards as he got 2 yellows in a game which became a red card Soucek has 3 yellow cards as well, Rice 2 and have played 2 games more. If you're looking at average amounts of yellow cards per 90 for DMs, the ranking in the Premier League is something like this. If we include a minimum playing time of 300 minutes as a starting DM to qualify, the list from highest to lowest is. 1-Harry Winks 2-Jake Livermore 3- Kalvin Phillips 4-Wilfried Ndidi 5- Nampalys Mendy 6- Rodrigo 7- Dani Ceballos 8- N'Golo Kante 9- Thomas Partey 10- Fred 11- Paul Pogba 12- Pierre-Emille Hojberg 13- Moussa Sissoko 14- Douglas Luiz 15- Joao Moutinho 16- Tomas Soucek 17- Granit Xhaka 18- Nemanja Matic 19- John Mcginn 20- Youri Tielemans 21- Declan Rice Edited February 4, 2021 by Laughable Chimp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazmonkey Posted February 4, 2021 Share Posted February 4, 2021 Have read some of the comments about the midfield it is clear that there is an issue. Being out muscled...working hard....bullied etc....players not really capable of playing in certain roles. The problem is we have too many midfielders who are the same and only offer one thing. I'll use the wingers as an example...el ghazi and traore. Both are that...wingers...not attacking midfielders but wingers. Going forward will always look good because of the attack minded players we have. However when youbplay against good organised teams you need more to your game. Our formation is right...however the players in certain positions just don't fit how the game is played. When you add in grealish and barkeley we essentially have 5 - 5 formation. Last night was always going to happen....ive played and coached at a good level and when you look at us...its simple....they are tired Tired makes mistakes...concentration...for the first 20 mins yiu are fine then...boooom...it hits you....no coincidence how the defending has gone school boy like....what do you do when tired...sit further and further back. I know a few had a bad game but when you add in the above...then its going to be a tough every game. Hopefully Dean will realise the errors made recently because it will be a shame to waste all the hard work to date especially if there is an European place up for grabs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinker Posted February 4, 2021 VT Supporter Share Posted February 4, 2021 The secret to our loss was Moyes tactic of man marking Jack with a player who did a great job and our other players not taking the responsibility to create themselves. We are normally a great team in possession, looked jaded last night. Without the ball though we are pretty average, we tend to win the ball back in defense and play out from there. The midfield definitely needs a ball winning physical player in there if our creative players are losing the ball time and time again. We sacrifice that defensive strength to have Jack, Barkley , McGinn , Douglas, Bert / Elgahzi on the pitch. All creative players who usually produce chances. Do we change our methodology to a more defensive set up and sacrifice the stylish swagger we have seen and to be honest has been a pleasure to watch? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts