Dean Smith

[tom_avfc]

24 minutes ago, TRO said:

I accept your overall view.....but in such circumstances, when some things were so stone blind obvious, we was losing the midfield and the initiative was being surrendered.....you might expect some level of agreement, but judging by their expressions, they didn't seem on the same page....of course you expect differences of opinion, blimey, we get it on here.

However, there is a subtle difference from disagreeing on minor points and fundamentals...I wasn't clear what Shakespeare, was suggesting but having a stab at it, i would guess it was something relating to Midfield.....where, I thought we was woeful.

Dean said last night, our defending was poor, but some of that defending comes from Midfield and upfront too.

Fair points on the main however there's more than one way to change the shape of a team that is losing the midfield. Shakespeare clearly seemed to suggest a 4-4-2 which I'd imagine would lead to a far more direct approach. Smith preferred bringing the extra midfielder on in Sanson to try and win the midfield a bit more. Given that once Sanson came on we scored and looked like potentially getting back into the game before Emi chucked one in uncharacteristically I'm not sure the subs and system changes we made were particularly bad.

Smith saying our defending was poor was not particularly aimed at the defenders in my view either. Defending as you say is the responsibility of the team and I'd suggest that the defence actually performed reasonably well and were let down by those in front of them for the goals. The lack of tracking back by midfielders for the first goal and how open we were for goals 2 and 3 (along with poor goalkeeping for both) was what led to us losing the game for me.

[MaVilla]

Just my opinions, but here goes:

1) Barkley is clearly a talented footballer on his day, no doubting it (although seems a 1 in 4 type player), but more often than not imo he slows us down and seems to want to act like a show pony, slowing play down so he can show how cool he is by standing still and waving his foot over the ball (the kind of thing players in my sons 10 year old team do to each other for "cool points"), he also imo is about as lazy a player as i have seen, he doesnt track, doesnt tackle and gets knocked off the ball way more than i would expect for a player his size, imo he's a 100% luxury player in a modern game where no teams (or very few teams) can carry a pure luxury player......we certainly cant.

2) We have Grealish (who is a bit of a show pony), but he works fairly hard and has earnt every bit of his show pony rights, but if you add Barkley (super lazy) and Traore (mercurial enigma) to this mix it effectively means the team as a unit doesnt work hard enough, we cant leave all the work to the fullbacks, the striker and 2 x DMs, we cant have 3 players with varying degrees of passiveness. (although i think Traore has progressively worked harder each game he has played, to be fair)

3) imo the right wing should be Traore or Trez (personally i prefer Traore), but at least trez gives us something the others dont in super high work rate, El Ghazi gives nothing imo.

4) El Ghazi shouldnt ever be in the starting 11, he's really poor, really really poor, ye he scored a few goals....but his overall play is epic levels of terrible.

5) Imo Sanson (who is known to be a hard worker with some ability to play), should come in for Barkley to add some solidity to the midfield, Sanson might also actually help Watkins press when we drop in to our 442 defensive shape.

6) We are too soft as a team, which i think is covered in the points above, i said to a friend that the modern game has (in part) changed because the old days of a Matt LeTissier type (for all his talent) who can just stand still and do nothing but wait for the ball are gone, the best teams today expect the entire team to work on and off the ball, any team in the modern game who carry a player that doesnt want to work is immediately at a disadvantage before a ball is even kicked, currently this is exactly what we are doing.

7) I think there are other issues with the squad/team, but i dont think they can be fixed until the summer window, so i have left them out and tried to just address my personal issues with the current squad, that can maybe be addressed with the current squad.

 

Honestly, if Deano persists with Barkley in the starting 11 i think it sends a very poor message to the squad in terms of getting away with being lazy and expecting the rest of the team to do your work for you, i have nothing against Barkley in the starting 11 "IF" he earns it and works hard like many others attempt to, currently i dont think Barkley deserves the spot, and by being there its sending a bad message imo with his current efforts.

Edited February 4, 2021 by MaVilla

[Villa 59]

58 minutes ago, TRO said:

First class rendition imo.

El Ghazi is a myth....he scores the odd goal and it papers over his general game....He is a total luxury, and we have a few of them.

The Balance of the squad is not right, he leaves himself little options on nights like last Night.....The midfield right now is embarrassing....and there seemed to be a difference of opinion last night with Dean & Craig.

No strength in central midfield. Need a bruiser who can play a bit and is both technically good and energetic. We've been needing this for years.... we're too soft and too easy to play against! We can't handle the aggression shown by other teams. Both Burnley and West Ham bullied us and we didn't have the answer. 

[Demitri_C]

1 hour ago, DCJonah said:

I get we all want to win games and they can be incredibly frustrating. 

But also what's the panic over when we lose? We aren't going down and we don't need to qualify for Europe. That would just be an incredible bonus. 

Teams like Everton, spurs and arsenal should be panicking about that. Chelsea should be worried about not breaking the top 4. 

Our season is comfortable, regardless of games like last night. And its comfortable because over these 20 games, Dean Smith and the squad have done a fantastic job. 

If we finish 8th or 13th whats the big difference?

Im know your not naming me but im not panicking. Just the manner we lost. You go score then within a  couple minutes go behind so easily.  Dont like that.

Top 10 id be really happy with

[VillanousOne]

7 minutes ago, Villa 59 said:

No strength in central midfield. Need a bruiser who can play a bit and is both technically good and energetic. We've been needing this for years.... we're too soft and too easy to play against! We can't handle the aggression shown by other teams. Both Burnley and West Ham bullied us and we didn't have the answer. 

The fact Luiz only got his 3rd yellow card of the season and he is arguably our most defensive midfielder shows we are far too lightweight and easy to play against.

Edited February 4, 2021 by VillanousOne

[TRO]

10 minutes ago, tom_avfc said:

Fair points on the main however there's more than one way to change the shape of a team that is losing the midfield. Shakespeare clearly seemed to suggest a 4-4-2 which I'd imagine would lead to a far more direct approach. Smith preferred bringing the extra midfielder on in Sanson to try and win the midfield a bit more. Given that once Sanson came on we scored and looked like potentially getting back into the game before Emi chucked one in uncharacteristically I'm not sure the subs and system changes we made were particularly bad.

Smith saying our defending was poor was not particularly aimed at the defenders in my view either. Defending as you say is the responsibility of the team and I'd suggest that the defence actually performed reasonably well and were let down by those in front of them for the goals. The lack of tracking back by midfielders for the first goal and how open we were for goals 2 and 3 (along with poor goalkeeping for both) was what led to us losing the game for me.

Tom, Our midfielders don't get after anyone, with any conviction, they just marshal and ball watch, just retreating and then getting washed up with the defence, where they leave it to them.....its clear....last night was not a one off, its more than that.

Our 2 CDM's look to me like, they don't like playing there, its not their natural instinct.

The poor defending is a team issue, not just the back 5.....we setup last night with huge gaps between our players, like they just had attacking on their mind, very noble,I might add, but you should secure the upper hand first, by nullifying them first.

They knew we was not up for the battle, and they played accordingly.

 

[TRO]

1 hour ago, Villa 59 said:

No strength in central midfield. Need a bruiser who can play a bit and is both technically good and energetic. We've been needing this for years.... we're too soft and too easy to play against! We can't handle the aggression shown by other teams. Both Burnley and West Ham bullied us and we didn't have the answer. 

Absolutley correct....but we keep running with this notion that is not needed.

I have said on here numerous times....McGinn and Luiz are not dedicated CDM's in the sense of the word......They don't look comfortable or natural there to me, they look like they are just doing a job and happy to be playing, quite understandable really.

They never, get after anyone, they just want to recycle the ball....its not enough at this level, players will hurt us if we don't stop them.

We have arguably the best, winger, AM in the league, he needs a ball winner to play him in and when he loses it, we win it again and play him in......we just have midfielders who just retreat and lose duels up front ,then the opposition turn in to goals at the back.

We need a ratter in the squad, like a Robbie Savage, with better ball skills.

Edited February 4, 2021 by TRO

[tom_avfc]

Just now, TRO said:

Tom, Our midfielders don't get after anyone, with any conviction, they just marshal and ball watch, just retreating and then getting washed up with the defence, where they leave it to them.....its clear....last night was not a one off, its more than that.

Our 2 CDM's look to me like, they don't like playing there, its not their natural instinct.

The poor defending is a team issue, not just the back 5.....we setup last night with huge gaps between our players, like they just had attacking on their mind, very noble,I might add, but you should secure the upper hand first, by nullifying them first.

They knew we was not up for the battle, and they played accordingly.

 

That's not at all relevant to anything I've said and if anything you're agreeing with my overall point. We lost the midfield - I don't think anybody is trying to argue that. You suggested that because of this fact the coaches should all be in agreement as to how to resolve the issue. There's more than one way to change a game where you are losing the midfield. The problem was pretty obvious as you say. The solution to this problem with the players available to bring on was less obvious and Shakespeare and Smith were discussing the best way to do this. This is perfectly normal and I'd imagine happens between every set of coaching staff in the league but just isn't focussed on by the cameras often.

To be fair I thought that West Ham would sit back a lot more than they did. The fact that they attacked us meant that we struggled in the middle of the pitch as a result of the attacking position which Barkley has been played in. To be fair the poor defending as an issue seems to have mainly arisen since Barkley came back from his injury. Whether he's not fit enough to get around the pitch as much or whether its tactical the fact that he is offering nothing when we're out of possession is the big problem in games when we concede a lot of possession.

[Villa 59]

3 minutes ago, TRO said:

Absolutley correct....but we keep running with this notion that is not needed.

I have said on here numerous times....McGinn and Luiz are not dedicated CDM's in the sense of the word......They don't look comfortable or natural there to me, they look like they are just doing a job and happy to be playing, quite understandable really.

They never, get after anyone, they just want to recycle the ball....its not enough at this level, players will hurt us if we don't stop them.

We have arguably the best, winger, AM in the league, he needs a ball winner to play him in and when he loses it, we win it again and play him in......we just have midfielders who just retreat and lost duels up front ,then turn in to goals at the back.

We need a ratter in the squad, like a Robbie Savage, with better ball skills.

agree 100%... Top teams have always have always have a top notch DM, that would be my priority in the summer. I thought our defence were ok last night and I put the defeat down to a very weak midfield.

[QldVilla]

16 minutes ago, TRO said:

Absolutley correct....but we keep running with this notion that is not needed.

I have said on here numerous times....McGinn and Luiz are not dedicated CDM's in the sense of the word......They don't look comfortable or natural there to me, they look like they are just doing a job and happy to be playing, quite understandable really.

They never, get after anyone, they just want to recycle the ball....its not enough at this level, players will hurt us if we don't stop them.

We have arguably the best, winger, AM in the league, he needs a ball winner to play him in and when he loses it, we win it again and play him in......we just have midfielders who just retreat and lost duels up front ,then turn in to goals at the back.

We need a ratter in the squad, like a Robbie Savage, with better ball skills.

Agree, Luiz is young and his best years are ahead of him, so I’m not ready to write him off completely as a DM, but he is a deep lying playmaker and the would be better suited in McGinn’s role. 
 

Personally I’d be chasing a proper DM in the summer, so will be interesting to see what Smith does.

[TRO]

40 minutes ago, tom_avfc said:

That's not at all relevant to anything I've said and if anything you're agreeing with my overall point. We lost the midfield - I don't think anybody is trying to argue that. You suggested that because of this fact the coaches should all be in agreement as to how to resolve the issue. There's more than one way to change a game where you are losing the midfield. The problem was pretty obvious as you say. The solution to this problem with the players available to bring on was less obvious and Shakespeare and Smith were discussing the best way to do this. This is perfectly normal and I'd imagine happens between every set of coaching staff in the league but just isn't focussed on by the cameras often.

To be fair I thought that West Ham would sit back a lot more than they did. The fact that they attacked us meant that we struggled in the middle of the pitch as a result of the attacking position which Barkley has been played in. To be fair the poor defending as an issue seems to have mainly arisen since Barkley came back from his injury. Whether he's not fit enough to get around the pitch as much or whether its tactical the fact that he is offering nothing when we're out of possession is the big problem in games when we concede a lot of possession.

Tom, sorry, maybe I am confusing 2 issues....by talking about 2 things at the same time.....I agree with you.

My frustration, personally is.....I have been saying for some time, we need a soucek,McTominay, Ndidi, type of player in our squad......I can't comment on Sanson as I have not seen him play enough, albeit, he does say he is a " Warrior" which is what I want  to see....don't get me wrong, its just one issue, we have many, who could be in my view, more combative, when needed.

Edited February 4, 2021 by TRO

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

1 hour ago, villa4europe said:

whilst i agree with it i dont like the notion that its the thing that will stop us from getting europe, its setting unrealistic and unfair expectations

if we end the season around 10th but somehow dour because of some perceived missed opportunity because smith didnt make changes like that then all it does is drag negativity in to the club that isnt needed

we are a mid table team, it is what it is and its better than last season and even arguably overachieving compared to what we were last season, talk of europe needs binning off

Your name contradicts your post. lol

On a serious note though, I think it's less " unreasonable expectation " and more us wanting to strike while the iron is hot. We have seen how taking advantage of opportunities like this can spur teams on to better things, both on and off the pitch. ( Leicester for example ).

Alot of us are also probably still haunted by MON era where we were top 4, above Arsenal, just needing ONE key ingredient to capitalise, and we signed Heskey instead of Falcao, for example. Don't remember who Arsenal signed but it made the difference.

Next season, alot of these teams could possibly stronger ( Obviously we could be too ), but I get the angle where people are coming from.

One on hand, I feel it's too early for Europe etc for us, on the other hand, I see an opportunity there, and realise getting European football could enhance/speed up our progress exponentially.

ALSO, when we are as poor as we were last night, I genuinely suffer from PTSD like ( Oh god I hope this is not how we actually are, and no where near as good as we have looked at times, this looks like the Villa of old )

Parts of that are obviously unfair/unreasonable, but it does happen.

 

[TRO]

15 minutes ago, QldVilla said:

Agree, Luiz is young and his best years are ahead of him, so I’m not ready to write him off completely as a DM, but he is a deep lying playmaker and the would be better suited in McGinn’s role. 
 

Personally I’d be chasing a proper DM in the summer, so will be interesting to see what Smith does.

Its not the intention, to write Luiz off....its the intention to see what job is not being done, and do it.

Personally, I think if he was Icelandic or Irish and Not Brazillian a different Perception may be made....but he has potential, sure, I just don't think he has it in him to be CDM in my understanding of the role.....but I don't think SJM is either, for maybe not the same reasons.

[bannedfromHandV]

I do think last night was the culmination of too many players playing too much football over the past few weeks, they looked fatigued.

Consistency in selection and setup obviously has benefits but it also makes us predictable, I’d like to see us mix it up on the weekend a bit, give Arsenal a surprise.

[TRO]

1 hour ago, VillanousOne said:

The fact Luiz only got his 3rd yellow card of the season and he is arguably our most defensive midfielder shows we are far too lightweight and easy to play against.

I just think it is so damn obvious, but I don't want to appear arrogant.

if one of McGinn or Luiz had a dominant character alongside them, it might be different, might......but both are not dominant, just passive.

[TRO]

3 minutes ago, bannedfromHandV said:

I do think last night was the culmination of too many players playing too much football over the past few weeks, they looked fatigued.

Consistency in selection and setup obviously has benefits but it also makes us predictable, I’d like to see us mix it up on the weekend a bit, give Arsenal a surprise.

It could be.....but we can only comment on what we see, we are not fitness guru's...... we are just second guessing that.

There are pluses for playing the same team.......14 players in 1980/81.......I know the rigours are different, but there is a good point by Dean saying, continuity, has its benefits too.

There are always many factors in a game like last night.....but the basic one is, we are far too benevolent and play the opposition in too often.....we are not anywhere close to being gritty.

[TRO]

1 hour ago, Herman22 said:

I think Dean made the right choice last night taking ElGhazi off at HT. He was completely out of the game and was offering nothing. 

I thought he should have taken Barkley off earlier, he was badly off the pace and the number of wayward passes was clear to see.

The move to switch Jack to a central (roaming) role was the right one. West Ham had 2-3 players on Jack from minute one and he was getting swarmed out of the left. 

Having said all of this the goals last night were criminal, the second and third were especially bad. How we go from a real threat to 2-0 down is a game killer. And Emi won't want to see the third (I think he could have done better on the second too BTW). 

spot on.

The reason why we go from a threat to conceding so easily, is because we don't compete, where is matters, we just surrender.

[Kingman]

Needs to put Jack back in the middle 

[Zatman]

1 hour ago, VillanousOne said:

The fact Luiz only got his 3rd yellow card of the season and he is arguably our most defensive midfielder shows we are far too lightweight and easy to play against.

Luiz actually has 5 yellow cards as he got 2 yellows in a game which became a red card

Soucek has 3 yellow cards as well, Rice 2 and have played 2 games more.

[nick76]

7 minutes ago, Kingman said:

Needs to put Jack back in the middle 

Nope