Israel, Palestine and Iran

[Mic09]

1 hour ago, bickster said:

Are we talking about Volhyn? Not something I know much about unfortunately 

And we're on the verge of going way off topic here

We are, it's just the unfortunate truth that throughout history you have countless examples of minorities that feel oppressed and start attacks against their perceived oppressors. And often, civilians die. 

These groups often work with outside forces/government's.

This Hamas/Israel situation is specific, but not dissimilar to others.

[Rustibrooks]

2 hours ago, Lichfield Dean said:

So... Our government refused to support a resolution opposing the genocide of an entire country because they weren't allowed to put a line in it that said, "but they started it!!!"

I honestly have no words ...

I was also shocked that Ukraine abstained from voting on this, you know considering the same thing is more or less happening to them. (Although there’s not so much of a concern of a humanitarian crisis over in Ukraine as far as I know)

[sne]

Proud day for Europe 

Edit, the one where Hamas was also criticized also didn't pass

Edited October 28, 2023 by sne

[Rustibrooks]

A huge shame on a lot of these countries

1 minute ago, sne said:

Proud day for Europe 

 

[Rodders]

12 minutes ago, sne said:

Proud day for Europe 

Edit, the one where Hamas was also criticized also didn't pass

That second vote is **** grim. Huge increase in countries refusing to agree once the amendment is added if I'm reading that right. **** those countries.

Edited October 28, 2023 by Rodders

[Thug]

14 minutes ago, Rustibrooks said:

I was also shocked that Ukraine abstained from voting on this, you know considering the same thing is more or less happening to them. (Although there’s not so much of a concern of a humanitarian crisis over in Ukraine as far as I know)

It’s appalling.

I suspect that their hand was somewhat forced by showing solidarity with just about the only country that can support them against Russia.

Regardless, it’s an absolutely disgusting look, and my sympathy towards them has just shrunk by a considerable amount.

[sne]

F all countries who don't want the slaughter stopped no matter what.

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

20 minutes ago, Rodders said:

That second vote is **** grim. Huge increase in countries refusing to agree once the amendment is added if I'm reading that right. **** those countries.

What was added in the second one though? Must have been something unreasonable, as it seems all the Arab countries voted against in that one as well

Edited October 28, 2023 by JAMAICAN-VILLAN

[Davkaus]

I suspect Ukrainians might be somewhat offended by parallels being drawn too closely between them and Palestine considering Hamas' actions

[Davkaus]

4 minutes ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

What was added in the second one though? Must have been something unreasonable, as it seems all the Arab countries votes against as well

Quote

Prior to adopting the resolution, the Assembly failed, by a recorded vote of 88 in favour to 55 against, with 23 abstentions, to adopt the amendment titled “Protection of civilians and upholding legal and humanitarian obligations” (document A/ES-10/L.26).  In addition to unequivocally rejecting and condemning the terrorist attacks by Hamas that took place in Israel starting on 7 October 2023, the rejected amendment would have also condemned the taking of hostages and would have demanded the safety, well-being and humane treatment of those hostages in compliance with international law and call for their immediate and unconditional release. 

https://press.un.org/en/2023/ga12548.doc.htm

[bickster]

42 minutes ago, Rustibrooks said:

I was also shocked that Ukraine abstained from voting on this, you know considering the same thing is more or less happening to them. (Although there’s not so much of a concern of a humanitarian crisis over in Ukraine as far as I know)

Geopolitical situation. Hamas > Iran > Russia

Plus Israel have recently made some quite pro-Ukrainian statements. Ukraine also has significant Jewish population (inc Zelensky) and sites of pilgrimage

[Mic09]

I think anyone shocked or disturbed to see countries voting against nothing more than a moral outcry needs to remember one thing.

Governments (regardless of how much they pretend) don't have morals or friends. They only have interests. 

And the interests in the European case are heavily driven by US and EU. 

If you take that into consideration, the puzzle becomes a little less complicated. 

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

4 minutes ago, Mic09 said:

I think anyone shocked or disturbed to see countries voting against nothing more than a moral outcry needs to remember one thing.

Governments (regardless of how much they pretend) don't have morals or friends. They only have interests. 

And the interests in the European case are heavily driven by US and EU. 

If you take that into consideration, the puzzle becomes a little less complicated. 

Sad but so true.

[Rustibrooks]

4 minutes ago, bickster said:

Geopolitical situation. Hamas > Iran > Russia

Plus Israel have recently made some quite pro-Ukrainian statements. Ukraine also has significant Jewish population (inc Zelensky) and sites of pilgrimage

Which is fair but i was looking at it more from the stand point that they can relate to what’s going on to some degree. But im not ignorant on the fact that they would have to abstain/veto in any situation to appease the countries backing them. 

[magnkarl]

3 hours ago, chrisp65 said:

The people in Gaza are trapped there by Hamas, Egypt and Israel.

Ftfy.

People seriously need to look into Egypt’s role in this too. It’s not like it’s Israel that controls all border crossings into Gaza. They’re verbally shocked, but are doing as little as possible for Palestine and Palestinians.

The harsh reality for Egypt is that Palestinians have caused massive issues within any neighbour of Palestine in which they end up. Go after the Jordanian king, attack the Olympics from Egyptian bases, start massive non-governmental militias (Hezbollah, Black September, Syrian militias).

Egypt’s line is to ‘stand firm in Gaza’, as the alternative means trouble. The Arabian world is showing extremely hypocritical behaviour by doing diddly squat outside of condemning Israel.

Iran’s yearly weapon support in dollars to Hezbollah and Hamas would be enough to lift everyone on the Gaza Strip out of poverty and squalor, but they’re a convenient thorn in the side of SA-Israel-USA, so it’s best for all of Israel’s neighbours that Palestine is kept downtrodden and destitute.

The whole world is failing the Palestinian civilian population who are either being used as a pawn by their so called friends or locked inside a tiny geographical area by their occupiers.

Edited October 28, 2023 by magnkarl

[Pongo Waring]

 

 

[chrisp65]

25 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

Ftfy.

People seriously need to look into Egypt’s role in this too. It’s not like it’s Israel that controls all border crossings into Gaza. They’re verbally shocked, but are doing as little as possible for Palestine and Palestinians.

The harsh reality for Egypt is that Palestinians have caused massive issues within any neighbour of Palestine in which they end up. Go after the Jordanian king, attack the Olympics from Egyptian bases, start massive non-governmental militias (Hezbollah, Black September, Syrian militias).

Egypt’s line is to ‘stand firm in Gaza’, as the alternative means trouble. The Arabian world is showing extremely hypocritical behaviour by doing diddly squat outside of condemning Israel.

Iran’s yearly weapon support in dollars to Hezbollah and Hamas would be enough to lift everyone on the Gaza Strip out of poverty and squalor, but they’re a convenient thorn in the side of SA-Israel-USA, so it’s best for all of Israel’s neighbours that Palestine is kept downtrodden and destitute.

Oh I wouldn’t defend Egypt or claim they aren’t an involved party. Same as Iran and Jordan, the U.S. and the U.K. and a whole host of others.

But what we all appear to be suggesting, is this didn’t happen in a vacuum. That there is back story and context and layers of the onion.

Which is in direct disagreement with our governement’s opinion and Israel’s opinion.

But for all the fingerprints of Britain and Egypt etc., there’s only one party kidnapping Israeli children and one party intensively bombing cities.

[a-k]

2 hours ago, chrisp65 said:

It’s a different separate independent state. Would you expect the border with Syria, Lebanon or Jordan to be open and fluid?

Egypt was attacked by rockets from ISIS in that 2018 anrticle and re established the buffer zone security? What’s your point? That Egypt should take in 2.2 million Palestinian refugees and leave a nice bit of coast free for Israeli settlers?

Explain it to me, why is this Hamas / Israel war only half the story? Should other nations just find the Palestinians a new country?

 

@magnkarl basically answered this for me. Who puts up a buffer zone if they're not concerned about their own safety? 

[chrisp65]

1 minute ago, a-k said:

@magnkarl basically answered this for me. Who puts up a buffer zone if they're not concerned about their own safety? 

And that makes them half the story?

I’m still not sure where you’re going with this one? I’ve already answered Mags.

 

[a-k]

2 hours ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

History never began on October 7th... It's bizarre to me how people keep blanking the blatantly obvious for convenience of the narrative 

These numbers will be much juicier by the end of this. As the Egyptian commentator/comedian said on Piers Morgan:

" What's the going exchange rate for Palestinian lives this year? "

" Hamas does not exist in the West Bank for example, so why are they being murdered over there too? "

Some of the things I see people regurgitating are literally narrative's from the likes.of Fox News and biased media.

I suggest people who don't know the depths and scale of this do some individual research, and some unbiased AND biased ( to the other side ) news.

It's bizarre to me how people can find any rationale for what Hamas did.

Are you suggesting that I have no knowledge of the conflict? I don't think I have said anything on this thread that hasn't been objective. In fact, when I gave a history lesson in response to another post, no one further replied to it because it's not what they wanted to hear.