Israel, Palestine and Iran

[Jareth]

You have the UN chief pointing out the plight of the Palestinians and in kind the Israelis calling for him to resign. The government of Israel simply do not understand how the rest of the world view this situation - I have no idea if that is their arrogance or that they just cannot imagine why anybody would empathise with the Palestinians. 

[Tumblerseven]

1 hour ago, OutByEaster? said:

Should those who hid them in their houses be killed? Should those that celebrated their inhuman actions be killed? Should those that wave flags and chant support for Hamas in a square be killed? Should their parents be killed? Their children? Their teachers? Those who say they were right and justified, should they die? Those that support Hamas but are ashamed of the way in which the killings were undertaken, do they need to die? Those that vote for Hamas and consider themselves supporters, but oppose terrorist acts? Those who shout for freedom 'from the river to the sea' should they die? It's not always as clear a line as we like.

I understand what you are saying personally i dont consider every person who hides or associates with Hamas as a terrorist. + Its a political party so every person in it is huge amount of people and you have there people who wants to change it from inside i understand that. I think killing/arresting leaders generals and fighters who did October 7 would suffice.

 

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presumably under the oversight of the UN, in order to ensure it's not merely seen as a window to re-arm and re-bolster those with violent intention for any future conflict. It'd need to come with some guarantees of security and peace for the people of Gaza - something to discourage them from replacing Hamas with anything similar - spoiling the ground for Hamas 2

Well i am liberal social democrat who believes in a responsibility of the society and their government and freedom of choice. I think they know what they want and they will choose it. They will have that right.

 

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why would you not want to trade with a neighbouring partner that you've helped to develop to a point where it's capable of doing so. It would seem like cutting off your nose to spite your face - it might be that i misunderstand you and that you mean just cut off the current relationship of dependency where you are required to supply fuel and water on a basis that isn't free trade.

Because i believe that free Palestine would fall apart really quick and i think these two parties cant work together as countries i think they want to destroy each other there is no way out of it. And there is possibilities when the war begins people will cry and moan about cutting trades and will call those acts inhuman so remove all the responsibility.

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 if what you're proposing is a free Gaza, then you'd have to support its freedom by treating crimes as crimes rather than an act of war. You would need to nurture the trust of the Palestinian people, foster their sense of stability and safety, remove the threat to the average working man in Gaza. Turning the other cheek and placing the process of reconciliation above that of revenge.

Uhm no.  I think if free Palestines ideology will be to destroy Israel and its people we can treat that terrorism as an act of war. Well im sorry im not prepared to treat Palestinians like children who needs teachings and guidance walking through the world. If thats the case if they actually need this we should just occupy Palestine right now insert puppet government and try to teach them into democracy and liberalism. Im not prepared to take that freedom from them.

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but in order to see any sort of solution to what's happening here and to avoid this thread and the events of the last month happening again it ten years and again in twenty years and again in thirty years, someone in Israel and someone in Palestine are going to have to start dreaming some pretty big dreams - because at the moment, the only real alternative to that for Israel is completely removing the future of a region that contains more than two million people.

I think that not every nation deserves a country. I think if you let people choose and the only thing they can do is elect the government with a purpose of terrorizing and attacking their neighbor maybe that country should not exist.

Edited October 24, 2023 by Tumblerseven

[OutByEaster?]

@Tumblerseven thank you - I don't agree with some of your points, but I am happy to hear them.

It's much more interesting finding out what you think, than hearing your anger at the thoughts of others.

 

[chrisp65]

Ah, I thought we were making progress. No, we’re still playing zero sum game.

Best someone orders more body bags.

[Chindie]

The UN agency that works in Gaza, which coincidentally Israel keeps killing employees of, has asked for fuel to be sent to Gaza. Israel's response? Ask Hamas for some.

They're a deeply unlikeable country.

[Chindie]

They're also pissed off that the hostage's released have said they were treated humanely when captured and won't be doing further interviews with any released.

[Panto_Villan]

31 minutes ago, Chindie said:

The UN agency that works in Gaza, which coincidentally Israel keeps killing employees of, has asked for fuel to be sent to Gaza. Israel's response? Ask Hamas for some.

They're a deeply unlikeable country.

 

29 minutes ago, Chindie said:

They're also pissed off that the hostage's released have said they were treated humanely when captured and won't be doing further interviews with any released.

To be fair, that’s not the whole story in the first case - the UN accused Hamas of stealing fuel and medical supplies from them about a week back, so I can see why Israel might be reluctant to allow them more.

Of course, the UN agency did then walk that accusation back afterwards. But they’re clearly incentivised to do so given that they probably wouldn’t get any more supplies if they didn’t. So I’m not sure what actually happened but I don’t think it’s as clear cut as you make out.

The second story is more positive. Doesn’t sound like she was treated well during the initial capture but it’s good to hear things have been better since then!

[Awol]

4 hours ago, Keyblade said:

Death toll in Gaza approaching 6000. Whatever Hamas did or didn't do, the Palestinian people don't deserve to bear the brunt of this sort of retaliation.

Worth keeping in mind 6000 is the number being given by Hamas, the same terrorist organisation which falsely claimed 471 people were killed in collapsed hospital - which never happened. No doubt civilians have been killed in Gaza, but 6000 is almost certainly complete BS.

In other news there’s now been 13 attacks on US forces in Iraq and Syria over recent days by Iranian proxy militias. The US has 86,000 passport holders in Lebanon and 600,000 in Israel. They are trying to move assets into place to get those people out, but are facing the largest non-combat evacuation in history.

The IDF wants to go into Gaza after Hamas, but when it does Hezbollah enters the chat and those US civilians in Lebanon are like ripe fruit for further hostage taking - in addition to attempting the overrunning of various US bases. The tension between those competing national priorities is very real, but if Israel holds off long enough for the US to try and get it’s nationals out, they can expect unwavering US support to then go after Hamas.

Interestingly, Macron has called today for an extension of the mandate of international coalition to fight ISIS being extended to include the destruction of Hamas.  Zero chance of that happening as it includes Arab states, but it’s a weird flex. 

[ml1dch]

10 hours ago, Chindie said:

They're also pissed off that the hostage's released have said they were treated humanely when captured and won't be doing further interviews with any released.

While it might well be true, the husbands of the released Nurit Cooper and Yocheved Lifshitz are still being held hostage.

If I'd been released from that situation and my wife were still there I probably wouldn't be going on the news and calling them murderous scumbags either, even if that's what I thought. 

[Mic09]

11 hours ago, Jareth said:

You have the UN chief pointing out the plight of the Palestinians and in kind the Israelis calling for him to resign. The government of Israel simply do not understand how the rest of the world view this situation - I have no idea if that is their arrogance or that they just cannot imagine why anybody would empathise with the Palestinians. 

To be fair, and not excusing Israeli war actions, every nation which is attacked pushes a similar rhetoric. They sort of have to - they can't say "well, they attacked us, so we keep bombing them, killing civilians who play no part in this conflict and caused a massive humanitarian crisis".

Appearances and propaganda have to be kept very tight - it's just the nature of war. 

 

[Mic09]

10 hours ago, Chindie said:

They're also pissed off that the hostage's released have said they were treated humanely when captured and won't be doing further interviews with any released.

There was a BBC live post yesterday saying that the released Israeli woman was told "they won't be hurt because they (kidnappers) believe in Quran".

[a-k]

11 hours ago, Chindie said:

The UN agency that works in Gaza, which coincidentally Israel keeps killing employees of, has asked for fuel to be sent to Gaza. Israel's response? Ask Hamas for some.

They're a deeply unlikeable country.

 

10 hours ago, Panto_Villan said:

To be fair, that’s not the whole story in the first case - the UN accused Hamas of stealing fuel and medical supplies from them about a week back, so I can see why Israel might be reluctant to allow them more.

Of course, the UN agency did then walk that accusation back afterwards. But they’re clearly incentivised to do so given that they probably wouldn’t get any more supplies if they didn’t. So I’m not sure what actually happened but I don’t think it’s as clear cut as you make out.

Apparently, images of fuel being "held hostage" by Hamas

 

[Awol]

1 hour ago, Mic09 said:

There was a BBC live post yesterday saying that the released Israeli woman was told "they won't be hurt because they (kidnappers) believe in Quran".

Yes. They are actually just misunderstood in the West. That’s why they murdered the father, mother, and son of this family, streamed it onto a family member’s Facebook page, then kidnapped the two daughters (8 and 15) into Gaza. Decent, god-fearing blokes, really. 

 

[villaglint]

@Awol Do you have any idea of the numbers of people involved in Hamas? And are they mostly Palestinians or are they made up of Arabs against Israel from many different countries?

[Jareth]

1 hour ago, Mic09 said:

To be fair, and not excusing Israeli war actions, every nation which is attacked pushes a similar rhetoric. They sort of have to - they can't say "well, they attacked us, so we keep bombing them, killing civilians who play no part in this conflict and caused a massive humanitarian crisis".

Appearances and propaganda have to be kept very tight - it's just the nature of war. 

 

I understand your point but this is a unique conflict and always has been. Israel have today said they're teaching the UN a lesson by not granting a UN representative a visa. The beef is purely down to the fact that the UN have given the current situation context and that the UN's words are heeded by the world. Understandable that a nation 'at war' should be across the comms, but Israel teaching the UN a lesson? Not a good look and demonstrative of a very dodgy, chaotic regime. 

[Mic09]

13 minutes ago, Awol said:

Yes. They are actually just misunderstood in the West. That’s why they murdered the father, mother, and son of this family, streamed it onto a family member’s Facebook page, then kidnapped the two daughters (8 and 15) into Gaza. Decent, god-fearing blokes, really. 

 

I am not pro hamas - I was replying to a previous post about the interviews not going at Israelis were hoping for. 

[MaVilla]

interesting interview with Queen Rania of Jordan.

 

 

[Awol]

27 minutes ago, villaglint said:

@Awol Do you have any idea of the numbers of people involved in Hamas? And are they mostly Palestinians or are they made up of Arabs against Israel from many different countries?

To the best of my knowledge the vast majority of Hamas fighters are Palestinians, but as with any large fighting force there’s always people from other countries in the mix somewhere.

Hamas has somewhere between 25-35,000 fighters in Gaza, and when you add in Palestinian Islamic Jihad and a few smaller groups you probably get to around 50K fighters in total. In an urban environment with 100’s of km’s of concrete reinforced tunnels underneath (from 150-270ft deep), that’s a very serious force.

[Jareth]

Here's the arch Hamas supporter in case anyone missed it

 

[chrisp65]

It’s about time Israel taught the UN a lesson.