LondonLax Posted October 24, 2023 Share Posted October 24, 2023 22 minutes ago, a-k said: I guess this is all fabrication too... There is a write up on the Guardian here: Quote Video from security cameras, mobile phones and body cameras screened to journalists https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/oct/23/israel-shows-footage-of-hamas-killings-to-counter-denial-of-atrocities The Troubles went on for decades but seem like a walk in the park to sort out compared with untangling this conflict. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted October 24, 2023 Share Posted October 24, 2023 (edited) The footage also includes clips taken from the phone of Palestinian citizens who joined in on the killings, among other things one where a whole group of men burn people alive inside safe rooms and Hamas fighters throwing hand grenades at kids. Hopefully it shuts up that very vocal minority who attributes no blame to Hamas, because those pictures and words are some of the worst I've read since ISIS rampaged through Iraq\Syria. Coincidentally a lot of the fighters were carrying ISIS flags. Edited October 24, 2023 by magnkarl 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VILLAMARV Posted October 24, 2023 Share Posted October 24, 2023 Today's highlights over my morning cuppa scanning VT include dismissing the relevance of the killing of children in a conversation about killing innocents and cheerleading actual torture of people. It's quite the thread. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tumblerseven Posted October 24, 2023 Share Posted October 24, 2023 October 7 by the way. On 07/10/2023 at 14:23, OutByEaster? said: Not so much a war, more a prison riot. On 07/10/2023 at 16:34, VILLAMARV said: What if we don't narrow the debate though? Is a peaceful outcome possible then? There always being a choice for violence is a fine point, where it's appropriate in my eyes. When used to defend the actions of a murderous, apartheid regime it seems a little pithy if i'm honest. The question of exactly when violence becomes 'justified' in a moral sense is a fine philosophical debate. Some people view Nelson Mandela as a cultural icon, others can't see past the bombings. But the defining point there is what other actions were left open to the human beings having to live through the torture, the beatings, the denigration, the subhuman treatment? It's exactly the point. On 07/10/2023 at 16:38, VILLAMARV said: 2 bits of MLK spring to mind "Darkness cannot drive away the darkness, only light can do that" But also "It's impossible for me to condemn the rioting, without also condemning the conditions that lead to the rioting" (I may well have paraphrased one or both of those) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr_Dogg Posted October 24, 2023 Share Posted October 24, 2023 1 hour ago, magnkarl said: The footage also includes clips taken from the phone of Palestinian citizens who joined in on the killings, among other things one where a whole group of men burn people alive inside safe rooms and Hamas fighters throwing hand grenades at kids. Hopefully it shuts up that very vocal minority who attributes no blame to Hamas, because those pictures and words are some of the worst I've read since ISIS rampaged through Iraq\Syria. Coincidentally a lot of the fighters were carrying ISIS flags. Who are these people? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desensitized43 Posted October 24, 2023 Share Posted October 24, 2023 6 minutes ago, Tumblerseven said: October 7 by the way. Relevance? People have the right to move positions when new information comes to light. I was very much of the opinion that Israel is an apartheid regime that's essentially kettled a bunch of people into open air prisons but nothing can justify what Hamas have done. What's happened has gone far in excess of what's acceptable when trying to fight for your right to a bit of land to call yours. It's mindless brutality and I'm afraid there's a lot on here who are so willing to explain away this as a bunch of people who have been pushed into it by the actions of Israel. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mic09 Posted October 24, 2023 Share Posted October 24, 2023 4 minutes ago, Mr_Dogg said: Who are these people? I don't think anyone, and this includes people of Palestine who just want a normal life, attribute no blame to Hamas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted October 24, 2023 Share Posted October 24, 2023 20 minutes ago, Tumblerseven said: October 7 by the way. What is it you’re hoping to win here? Why not try to converse and persuade people rather than deny any context or history whilst calling people names and demanding absolute support. Or you can just keep trying to shout the loudest, its your choice really. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wainy316 Posted October 24, 2023 Share Posted October 24, 2023 He mentioned this on his podcast Conflicted (check it out it's ace). A Saudi brokered deal that would have established a Palestinian state and had Israel's backing as it would settle tensions with and give them access to Saudi resources. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bannedfromHandV Posted October 24, 2023 Share Posted October 24, 2023 So much propaganda being espoused in this thread, I’ve given up posting as it’s become a bunfight over who’s the most wrong. Do your own research on the history of what’s happened out there since 1948 and not since three weekends ago and formulate your own opinion, is my best ‘advice’. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted October 24, 2023 Share Posted October 24, 2023 1 minute ago, Wainy316 said: He mentioned this on his podcast Conflicted (check it out it's ace). A Saudi brokered deal that would have established a Palestinian state and had Israel's backing as it would settle tensions with and give them access to Saudi resources. I think that’s been the theory from the start hasn’t it? That Iran couldn’t risk the normalisation of relations with other states and Israel so they wound up their proxy to try and smash it up. Saudi couldn’t buddy up with Israel if Israel is flattening Gaza. Depending on how cynical you want to be and how much intelligence you want to grant Iran, they’ve both been played. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awol Posted October 24, 2023 Share Posted October 24, 2023 Info on the delay of ground assault - pretty much as expected: 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a-k Posted October 24, 2023 Share Posted October 24, 2023 34 minutes ago, bannedfromHandV said: So much propaganda being espoused in this thread, I’ve given up posting as it’s become a bunfight over who’s the most wrong. Do your own research on the history of what’s happened out there since 1948 and not since three weekends ago and formulate your own opinion, is my best ‘advice’. Why the cut-off date of 1948? Many things relevant to the current conflict happened in the 50ish years prior and are just as important but seemingly neglected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tumblerseven Posted October 24, 2023 Share Posted October 24, 2023 (edited) Well i hoped to show the hypocrisy of VILLAMARV with that comment. Do i really need to explain more? i dont think im prepared to explain every sentence to you. You mentioned something about language barrier the other day i dont think i can help you with that. Or maybe you should calm down because this is very emotional topic and then calmly look at what is being said here. I wanted to show how people in here from day 1 actually from minute 1 minimizing or excusing the events (ONE OF THE BIGGEST TERORIST ACTS) Yes calling it a riot is excusing and minimizing. I see games being played in this forum by some people including you and i dont like it. I see demonization i see dishonesty back handed comments who excuse or rationalize one side but not another. I think this is left leaning space so people are prepared to ignore some really really bad comments and they let them fly by like its nothing. Im not prepared to do that. I dont think i can persuade any person who is using 60 or 100 year historic excuses to minimize or excuse violence in 2023. I dont think people even understand what are they saying or implying when they use those excuses. They basically saying that a terrorist or an army can look at a world map in 1900 and they can justify any war or any violence in 2023 by "historic territorial dispute".. And thats crazy. I dont think im shouting the loudest but good try. 1 hour ago, chrisp65 said: What is it you’re hoping to win here? Why not try to converse and persuade people rather than deny any context or history whilst calling people names and demanding absolute support. Or you can just keep trying to shout the loudest, its your choice really. Edited October 24, 2023 by Tumblerseven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted October 24, 2023 Share Posted October 24, 2023 2 minutes ago, Tumblerseven said: Well i hoped to show the hypocrisy of VILLAMARV with that comment. Do i really need to explain more? i dont think im prepared to explain every sentence to you. You mentioned something about language barrier the other day i dont think i can help you with that. Or maybe you should calm down because this is very emotional topic and then calmly look at what is being said here. I wanted to show how people in here from day 1 actually from minute 1 minimizing or excusing the events (ONE OF THE BIGGEST TERORIST ACTS) Yes calling it a riot is excusing and minimizing. I see games being played in this forum by some people including you and i dont like it. I see demonization i see dishonesty back handed comments who excuse or rationalize one side but not another. I think this is left leaning space so people are prepared to ignore some really really bad comments and they let them fly by like its nothing. Im not prepared to do that. I dont think i can persuade any person who is using 60 or 100 year historic excuses to minimize or excuse violence in 2023. I dont think people even understand what are they saying or implying when they use those excuses. They basically saying that a terrorist or an army can look at a world map in 1900 and they can justify any war or any violence in 2023. And thats crazy. I dont think im shouting the loudest but good try. Ok, I tried. You keep shouting until you win. You bludgeon people until they accept all your points. It’s worked really well so far. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tumblerseven Posted October 24, 2023 Share Posted October 24, 2023 4 minutes ago, chrisp65 said: Ok, I tried. You keep shouting until you win. You bludgeon people until they accept all your points. It’s worked really well so far. What the actuall fu** is happening???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mic09 Posted October 24, 2023 Share Posted October 24, 2023 16 minutes ago, Tumblerseven said: I dont think i can persuade any person who is using 60 or 100 year historic excuses to minimize or excuse violence in 2023. Aren't both sides of the conflict (Hamas and Israel) using 60 or 100 or 4000 year historic excuses to support their cause? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tumblerseven Posted October 24, 2023 Share Posted October 24, 2023 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Mic09 said: Aren't both sides of the conflict (Hamas and Israel) using 60 or 100 or 4000 year historic excuses to support their cause? Yah they are in a broader sense of the conflict and i dont care about any side who does that. I think Israel main cause is to try to survive and defend their land from parties countries who dont like Israel existing. I really dont think that israel main thinking right now is that we were here 2000 years ago so we justified or entitled to that or that. Edited October 24, 2023 by Tumblerseven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonLax Posted October 24, 2023 Share Posted October 24, 2023 1 hour ago, Wainy316 said: He mentioned this on his podcast Conflicted (check it out it's ace). A Saudi brokered deal that would have established a Palestinian state and had Israel's backing as it would settle tensions with and give them access to Saudi resources. Iran could not let that happen. They have been recovering North Korean made grenade launchers from the Hamas attacks, which likely suggests some assistance from Russia, at least with logistics. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted October 24, 2023 Share Posted October 24, 2023 2 hours ago, Mr_Dogg said: Who are these people? If you go outside any Jewish establishment in London or the Israeli embassy they'll be the people flying Hamas or Islamic Jihad flags. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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