Zatman Posted May 29, 2018 Share Posted May 29, 2018 19 minutes ago, VillaChris said: Hierro was better. He won a few CLs aswell. He was also as dirty as well, suppose different era Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VillaChris Posted May 29, 2018 Share Posted May 29, 2018 I just think with the way attacking football has gone to be played from the back, defenders obviously have to play on the front foot now and they are reactive rather than proactive in how they defend. Compare the better defenders around to the ones in the 90s and I just think there's a gulf in anticipation, positioning and all the stuff although you can counter with the pace and athleticism of the forward players has gone up considerably since then. As much as Ramos is being lauded (and he undeniably has an amazing trophy cabinet which I can't dismiss) he should've times his jump better for the Liverpool goal for the corner on Saturday. Instead Lovren or whoever beat him to the ball and Mane tapped it in. So you have this great defender who was at fault for the goal his team conceded in their biggest game of the season. Real Madrid have conceded some ridiculous goals in La Liga this season and he's been in defence for most of their games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_Pangloss Posted May 29, 2018 Share Posted May 29, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, VillaChris said: Hierro was better. He won a few CLs aswell. He was a very different player, he spent a decent about of time in midfield and as a sweeper. At the end of the day, if we're talking about the greatest centre half, for me it has to be Marco Baresi, players like Ramos do not come even close to him. Edited May 29, 2018 by Dr_Pangloss 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_Pangloss Posted May 29, 2018 Share Posted May 29, 2018 (edited) 5 hours ago, bobzy said: Can’t rate him at all. He’s just a thug, but not in an outright way - in a cowardly, snidely way. The sooner his types are out of the game, the better. What a load of absolute garbage. 'Just a thug' he says, a 'thug' who has been pivotal in sides that have won multiple league titles, four champions leagues, two European Championships and a World Cup LOL Edited May 29, 2018 by Dr_Pangloss Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeyp102 Posted May 29, 2018 Share Posted May 29, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, VillaChris said: I just think with the way attacking football has gone to be played from the back, defenders obviously have to play on the front foot now and they are reactive rather than proactive in how they defend. Compare the better defenders around to the ones in the 90s and I just think there's a gulf in anticipation, positioning and all the stuff although you can counter with the pace and athleticism of the forward players has gone up considerably since then. 1 hour ago, Dr_Pangloss said: At the end of the day, if we're talking about the greatest centre half, for me it has to be Marco Baresi, players like Ramos do not come even close to him. Agreed Ramos doesn’t compete with top defenders of the modern past, Nesta, Cannavaro etc or going further back the likes of Maldini and Baresi (and many more). Like mentioned the game is changing and with that the way people attack and defend. But, in the last 5-10 years there have been very few better defenders who have been at the top consistently, hence for me one of the best of his generation. (Yes I know you were both in agreement in a way over his capabilities.) Edited May 29, 2018 by mikeyp102 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobzy Posted May 30, 2018 Share Posted May 30, 2018 10 hours ago, Dr_Pangloss said: What a load of absolute garbage. 'Just a thug' he says, a 'thug' who has been pivotal in sides that have won multiple league titles, four champions leagues, two European Championships and a World Cup LOL Well he’s obviously not SOLELY a thug, he can play football very well, but that part of his game is part of why I don’t rate him as highly as many other defenders in world football. He’s not even a touch on Puyol, for example. I don’t particularly see the relevance of club winning lots = amazing player, by the way. Real Madrid’s defence has been leaky as **** this season for having such a world class centre back in there. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_Pangloss Posted May 30, 2018 Share Posted May 30, 2018 (edited) 46 minutes ago, bobzy said: Well he’s obviously not SOLELY a thug, he can play football very well, but that part of his game is part of why I don’t rate him as highly as many other defenders in world football. He’s not even a touch on Puyol, for example. I don’t particularly see the relevance of club winning lots = amazing player, by the way. Real Madrid’s defence has been leaky as **** this season for having such a world class centre back in there. ..because he has been a key player in a lot of that success and obviously it's his fault that they have a leaky defence this season and nothing to due with Varane being average, Navas being dodgy and having at least one fullback who can't defend to save his life. Edited May 30, 2018 by Dr_Pangloss Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobzy Posted May 30, 2018 Share Posted May 30, 2018 3 minutes ago, Dr_Pangloss said: ..because he has been a key player in a lot of that success and obviously it's his fault that they have a leaky defence this season and nothing to due with Varane being average, Navas being dodgy and having at least one fullback who can't defend to save his life. I should’ve known it would be everyone else’s fault Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zatman Posted May 30, 2018 Share Posted May 30, 2018 Well its true Marcelo awful defensively. He looked more solid when Pepe was there who a better defender than Varane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VillaChris Posted May 30, 2018 Share Posted May 30, 2018 11 hours ago, mikeyp102 said: Agreed Ramos doesn’t compete with top defenders of the modern past, Nesta, Cannavaro etc or going further back the likes of Maldini and Baresi (and many more). Like mentioned the game is changing and with that the way people attack and defend. But, in the last 5-10 years there have been very few better defenders who have been at the top consistently, hence for me one of the best of his generation. (Yes I know you were both in agreement in a way over his capabilities.) Agreed, you can't argue over his trophy cabinet. If I had to chose though, I'd go for Pique as the slightly better CB of the two though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zatman Posted May 30, 2018 Share Posted May 30, 2018 Pique technique hides a very average player. Slow and easily out of position Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VillaChris Posted May 30, 2018 Share Posted May 30, 2018 He seems like a nice boy anyway compared to "thug" Ramos. I'm also part Polish and my grandparents called me Pique all the time when I was younger so always quite liked him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheAuthority Posted May 31, 2018 VT Supporter Share Posted May 31, 2018 Isn't "master of the dark arts" another way of saying, knows how to cheat and get away with most of the time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_Pangloss Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 7 hours ago, TheAuthority said: Isn't "master of the dark arts" another way of saying, knows how to cheat and get away with most of the time? Pretty much, although there's definitely an art to it and I possibly like plays who deploy it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troglodyte Posted May 31, 2018 VT Supporter Share Posted May 31, 2018 22 hours ago, Zatman said: Pique technique hides a very average player. Slow and easily out of position I know you love Real but saying Pique is average is nonsense. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AVFC_Hitz Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 4 hours ago, Troglodyte said: I know you love Real but saying Pique is average is nonsense. From what I've seen Pique is well above average... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zatman Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 I just dont think he is good as say Puyol was. Good on ball but not good defender Fergie would have kept if he rated him for example but he preferred Evans Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troglodyte Posted June 1, 2018 VT Supporter Share Posted June 1, 2018 Puyol was an incredible defender. To say Pique wasn't as good as him doesn't make him 'average'. He is a very, very good defender. Unfortunately he seems to get criticism as a result of him being good on the ball - many seem to assume that's why Barcelona value him so much, rather than that he's such a capable centre back. Barça are much more solid when he's playing but the way they approach games sometimes leaves him exposed against attackers: that's often where you see his defensive skills, particularly his timing and excellent positioning. And yes, Ferguson kept Evans and Pique left (although Barça did use his buy-back clause, so United didn't really have an option) but that doesn't support your argument. Are you actually saying that Jonny Evans turned out to be a better defender than Gerard Pique? And as incredible a manager as Ferguson was, that doesn't mean he never made mistakes in terms of transfers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zatman Posted July 10, 2018 Share Posted July 10, 2018 Harry Maguire. Good on the ball, brave in the air. He was a bit pacier he be the ultimate centre half and going to a top club another I believe we were linked with in his younger days Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MapleVilla Posted July 11, 2018 Share Posted July 11, 2018 Love Ramos for Spain....For Madrid can't stand him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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